Joel Kleber  00:00

So Hi everyone. Welcome to Episode Four of the authentic convos podcast and just an update Sorry, I've been away for so long to anyone who was a regular listen to the first three episodes. Just a lot of things happening obviously if you you know, like everyone else the COVID situation and with the with the podcast as well I didn't I wanted to have a certain guest on and I wasn't able to do it. So I sort of put on the backburner. However, in this week's episode, we have Addy Dunkley Smith who is part of the satellite foundation. And she was kind enough to give a lot of time up and tell us about that and also has a lot of personal experience regarding growing with the mentally ill parents. And she's actually involved in trying to help do something in the community with the satellite Foundation, so important links as well in the bias and make sure you check them out. And also they do take donations as well. And they go directly to helping the programs and helping kids in need who need this sort of stuff and it's a really great chat. And I really thank adiabatic who's her involvement with satellite plus also in helping consult for work for various projects regarding it is quite interesting in goes into a lot of depth, a lot of detail a really difficult time and the key message for anyone listening to this if you are from a similar situation if you have listened previous podcast we know about myself or or pet someone who's grown up with a with a mentally children your position to do something about it. Please take action do something you know, that's the main message I want to get across from this. And that can be done by mentoring people or you know, can do donation to some various foundations or places in your state who do work with kids who grew up in similar situations to us. So your any suggestions for guests, please chuck them in the comments. So you can on the Facebook page as well. You can follow me just look up Joel Kleber combos that should come up. If you can give us a subscribe in writing as well. That'd be very much appreciated. So until next week, guys, I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you want me just first introduce who you are. A little bit about yourself.

Addy Dunkley-Smith  01:49

Yes, so my name is Eddie. I introduce a little bit about myself, I do lots of things. I used to be an athlete mostly. But at the moment, I am studying my doctorate in clinical psychology. I do a little bit of volunteering and work with an organization called satellite Foundation, which supports children who have parents with mental illness, and we try to connect with their families, but primarily, our programs are for the children. So yeah, I love doing that. I've got an older brother and a younger sister, so and my mom's still around. My, my dad had bipolar disorder. And he we lost him to suicide about eight years ago now. So I've actually got a photo of him sitting on my desk sort of writing for me, he's always there with me. But yeah, so that drives a lot of the work and a lot of the interests that I have in this space, and I guess in the field of mental health. Yeah, I love my family. Very family family oriented. And yeah, it's they're pretty important to me. So

Joel Kleber  03:05

those are the introductions, a lot of time packed there. So I'll try and do my best. And let's just say you weren't. You weren't just any old athlete. You're quite. You're quite a few Australia, you rode to move to touch a little bit about that.

03:18

Yeah, I was lucky enough. In 2017, I moved up to New South Wales to train out of the National Training Center for yet to be on the Australian rowing team. But prior to that, I've spent, I don't know probably about seven years, or seven or eight years running fairly competitively, sort of through school, I learned with a really good friend of mine at school, Jen Cleary who went to the Rio Games, Rio Olympic Games. Um, I lived with her dad, and yeah, we used to go out on the weekends together. But then also, I was lucky to go to a school that had a lot of sport involvement. So I got to row as extra curricular activity while I was at school. Yeah, and I loved it, I was kind of override at it, which makes it easier to do. And I love that it's such a team sport, you're around you mates, and you have to kind of get on one, one track mind with each other. And it also kind of offers like a mindfulness kind of activity as well because you're so focused on it's a really repetitive actions, kind of like running but a little bit more complicated. So it really takes your mind really takes mental power, but a lot of focus. So I love it. I've loved it for that reason as well and getting out in nature. So yeah, then I am after I finished school, moved up to Melbourne and rode at a club level and state level. made a lot of great friends doing that. And yeah, going To some underage teams like an under 21 team, we went and raised in New Zealand and then an under aged Ozzy team, we went to the under 23 worlds twice. That was pretty. So pretty cool, awesome stuff, you get to do fly overseas and sort of do lots of fundraising in the lead up to that, to sort of pay away as well. Um, but yeah, since since the end of 20 2017. I have been focusing more on my studies again, 2017 was a massive year in my life, my auntie got really sick. So that kind of made me reorient my focus for a little bit and wanted to come back home and be near my family. Like I said, they're really important to me. So yeah, that brought me back from sort of that that was like, seven days a week. Training once on a Sunday, but like three times, six days a week, sort of sunup to sundown, you're thinking about food recovery and training. It's just like everything you do. So it doesn't leave much space for a lot of other stuff, unfortunately. So yeah, now I'm doing something different but it's been a really cool part of my life. Definitely.

Joel Kleber  06:23

Cool and obviously achieved a lot in it. So I love that stuff. You've learned during that in that interesting you said you said about it was a meditation almost in a while, I guess as a younger person that helped you a lot in the situation you probably grew up similar to mine. Mine was more gets I've done a lot of sport as well and guitar. So for me, I was always that was my that was my, almost what you would say a stress reliever and you can throw yourself in a lot more. It's highly made things easier. So that's tough.

06:49

At school. I have one in my cupboard, but I haven't touched it in so long, which is sad. But I've Yeah, my dad was really theatrical loved singing and would kind of embarrass me sometimes doing that in public. But I'm, you know, I love that about him. And yet singing actually is another time when I feel great. Not that I do that a lot now, but just you know, in the shower in the car. Yeah, music is pretty, pretty good for that too.

Joel Kleber  07:16

But let's talk about satellite. So you mentioned Yeah, main reason for having you on and, and all that sort of stuff. So I watched your YouTube pitch with rose, who heads it up. And it's a very powerful story, start when you're going to do that. And we thought we'd create? Well, the goal is to create a bit more content that you guys can use, but maybe something online or or down the track anymore. And that's what you do. So maybe Donna, tell us about your involvement in that. And the more in depth about the programs and what it's trying to achieve?

07:42

Yeah, yeah. So satellite, like I said, it's a, it's an organization that's at the moment, it's relatively small, it's not as big as something like beyond blue. But we try to create really high quality connections with the young people who we meet. Which means that rose calf the found one of the co founders, has met some young people when they were like 10 years old, and now knows them. And they're sort of in their 20s, late 20s. And one of them's pregnant at the moment with their own child. So I really like that long period of time working with someone and getting to know young people who otherwise don't have a lot of positive contact with services. I know I had this conversation a bit with you. And sometimes, and it's definitely what I see in the research that I do. And the people that I speak young people that I speak with, is that a lot of the time the focuses of mental health services are on like crisis, and they're really on your parent. And despite lots of pushes to be much more family focused, generally speaking, they just looking at the parent as an adult, and not looking at the family. So satellite really offers an opportunity for the children in those situations to get a bit of support made other kids who have a similar experience. Get involved in things like music, there's a music, art and songwriting workshop, there's photography workshops, and we do camps. I've also been really involved in some leadership programs for sort of early, late adolescence and young adults, just getting them connected, because again, like they might not have had those opportunities when they were young. I definitely didn't get access to those sorts of things when I was younger, something like satellite didn't exist as far as I knew back then. So yeah, I think it's really important to offer those programs to young adults, as well. Yeah, and that's been an amazing thing to be part of. Unfortunately, like a lot of small organizations. We rely on funding. I guess the generosity of the community, and also various, I guess funding bodies, we have to pitch for funding against other organizations and try to show our impact measure, we have to measure that along the way if we can. And we're definitely trying to do that as much as we can. But yeah, one of the opportunities that we had to pitch for funding was a group called the funding network. They run. It's like crowdfunding, they get a roomful of corporate people who are interested in social justice, and they listen to a speak for I think it's like, five minutes total. And part of that is really telling the story of, of why you do what you do, and giving a clear way that you'll use whatever funds that people generously donate. So yeah, I spoke about my experiences with my dad, at the start of that, and what it was like to grow up not having those kind of not having an organization that offered me connections to other young people who knew what I was going through. So it felt pretty isolating. And there's lots of things that come with mental illness that, unfortunately, other people, well, maybe fortunately, other people don't necessarily get unless they've been through it. So yeah, just sharing that with people and getting across really what it feels like to be in that experience, feeling isolated, the ups and downs of family life and sort of the rifts that can form in families because of the consequences of an illness. Yeah, and how they can really change the person that you love deeply, and yet creates a lot of internal conflict, but also in toxic conflict in the family. So yeah, that's what I shared with them. Yeah,

Joel Kleber  11:57

that's great. And, yeah, I've had a few more experiences. We obviously had parents with bipolar mom was a single parent, you had the you had a mother and a father and the whole the whole time. Yeah, yeah. So what I want to touch on is a couple things you mentioned is, um, with the How do you measure the impacts? For me, it's, it's very, it's very interesting how to measure the impact, like, you know, how we got involved with this kid at 10 years old? And if he didn't have this, his path would have been maybe this and then, but yeah, you know, I mean, like, over a long period of time, it just seems to me, it's the non fare, almost, you know, that's how you've got to try and justify it.

12:30

Yeah, it's super tough. Especially because satellite has been really interested in those quality, long term connections, and also surviving on mainly volunteers, and then more, more recently, a little bit more funding. But to get that funding and maintain that funding, yet, measuring your impact, which is like the language, you know, is really important. And a lot of other organizations look at how many kids they connect with how many kids they can move through a program. And that's, that's one way you can measure things, how many seats? How many buttons do you get on seats, sort of? But there's other ways I guess, measuring at the start and the end of the program? What, what are the levels of self esteem? I prefer self compassion, like how do they think about themselves and treat themselves in hard times, also talking to them about the changes that happen in how they see their family and how they relate with their family. So you can measure that with numbers. But also, you can just talk to people, and there's a lot of young people who've had really high quality conversations with their parents about what they need and what's been going on for them that they didn't have ever before being involved in a satellite program. Yeah, I

Joel Kleber  13:59

can imagine it's a personal experience hearing you say that sort of stuff was sort of like as a kid, like, you know, I had no idea how to deal with it. So all this stuff, you're exactly saying I'm sure you're in a similar boat, would have been highly beneficial. So how does the identification process go? So let's say if it's regional areas or metros, how do these kids you know, identified and put into this program? What happens there?

14:19

Yeah, so I guess that's also a really important and also tricky, seemingly pot because there's so many organizations out there, and people working in mental health sectors need to be across all of that so that they can refer families towards them. So getting in contact with mental health services, letting them know that we exist, that satellite exists and that we're a space for all young people, not just young people who are having a really hard time themselves. But young people who just want to connect just want to chat. They might not have difficulties with their mood or anxiety or anything, but it's A real preventative sort of strategy to make sure those things don't develop. And so that they can maximize their well being and have futures that are full of potential and possibilities. So getting in contact with those mental health services, but then also like teachers, teachers can, are often aware of these things going on in students, families. Yeah. So them knowing and directing kids to these kinds of organizations, is really important. And we're trying to increase our online presence, which is something that is really important. And I know you know that as well. So jazzing up the website, trying to engage on Instagram and those sorts of things so that a kid who's yet struggling can literally just google What's going on? Like, how do I figure this out, and they'll find satellite, and then just be able to jump on the website and connect with us without even having to go through any adults, because often adults are kind of the gatekeepers to getting support. And a lot of young kids in these circumstances, they're pretty independent, they can do a lot for themselves. And sometimes it's sometimes getting that support is hard, because that means acknowledging that they need a bit of support, and they're so focused on looking after other people sometimes. So yeah, just being able to reach out on their own or through adults that they trust.

Joel Kleber  16:27

Now, before that before, I don't know what your experience was, but before this whole sort of thing existed, what was in place that you know, of in terms of solving this sort of problem? Was there anything in place? Was it sort of a newish sort of thing that's happening? or?

16:40

Yeah, there are lots, I've been fortunate to meet a lot of the people who work sort of solely in this area, and getting to know them personally, I know that they're actually incredibly generous and good people. But unfortunately, there's not very many of them. And like I said, a lot of the time mental health services are so focused on crisis, that they don't respond in ways that help the whole family. So a lot of mental health workers don't know actually how to help the whole family, and therefore they don't, they don't do it, because they are afraid of getting it wrong. Which you can understand. But that's a problem, obviously. So yeah, for a long time, there wasn't a lot offered to kids, there were there were small organizations, and an organization called cut me, has always has been around for a long time, that's children of parents with mental illness. And they've merged into a big organization called emerging minds, which is all about all different kinds of children who have some experience of adversity in their life. So they're really good. They're actually helping satellite out with a little bit of funding at the moment to run some programs and do some of that evaluation and testing of the impact, which is great. So yeah, definitely, there wasn't much not when I was young, and I think when when you were young, but in there is more increasingly so. And luckily, the Royal Commission coming out has checked in with families and with kids, and with advocates for those people. And is has really clear guidelines on how to how to look at families and how to support family. So more and more the legislation and the policies are pointing in this direction. Unfortunately, the lag between that and actual, on the grand opportunities can can be like 10 years is what I've heard. So as much as we can speed that up. We need to

Joel Kleber  18:52

divert to someone in Queensland I don't feel it was the health minister or someone who was he shared his story online? I don't know if you saw that. And then you had he grew up with a I think his mama had schizophrenia, bipolar or something. And he shared the story of what's gone, you know, how brave and that but you see the comments. I had a similar thing. I had a similar thing, a lot of similar thing you look at that. It's often people age 50 to 60. So it's quite interesting, because there'd be people in Parliament's or stuff now, if significant, let's say influence on wealth, who would have had a similar situation? And you never hear anything about it? Or there's no there's nothing to prioritize towards which for me, is quite baffling. I don't know if it's a generation, or it's somebody that just to embarrass this to share even if they're a bit older, a bit more mature. I just think it's, it's quite strange, statistically, you would know, there'll be a significant number of people in those positions or whatever, who would have had a similar Yeah, some sort of way.

19:41

Definitely, we know that, at least or around about a quarter of children under 18 years in Australia have at least one parent or guardian who has a mental illness and that doesn't include substance use disorders, that statistic and it also doesn't include family That kind of don't recognize that that's what's going on probably doesn't include families where a parent tends to be fairly anxious or a bit low, but doesn't really meet criteria for mental illness. So there are things that, Yeah, me too. It baffles me that this isn't more of a thing. Every time I go back to that, that statistic, it's like it's it's a quarter of people. And that's what the under 18. So yeah, when you take into account young adults and older adults, it's it's a massive number of people. It's not an s&m thing, either. It's a it's a way because it's so, so common. But yeah, I think it has been really heavily stigmatized, and layers of that are coming off. But and if you want to be idealistic, you'd say that there wasn't, there wasn't the stigma anymore. But when you think about, you know, when I think about sharing my story, I have to consider what I do consider what will people think of me when they know this about me? What will they think about my family? Will they judge my family? Will people judge my dad for taking his life, and there are people who do, and that's, I have to put, you know, I have to put that on the line and consider those things. And that's, I guess, some evidence of there still being stigma, even for someone who's really comfortable talking about it, relatively speaking.

Joel Kleber  21:30

Yeah, and I experienced a similar thing, you know, my mom's got dimensioned out 61. And, you know, she's in a nursing home full time, but she still goes down the street sometimes, and you hear things back from people and stuff, which is not very nice. And that sort of tarnishes you, and reflects bad on badly on you. And even as a young kid, you know, in going to school, you might get some, I was pretty lucky, I was a bit more. I wasn't, I wasn't bullied or anything at school. So I was a bit lucky. But you still get you still get the occasional comment and, and all that sort of stuff. So I can understand the stigma still there. And maybe it's the same that maybe that's the case with people who've been older. And in those positions, through, which was, which I found interesting was the response to this guy's story, because I think it's wouldn't be common at all, to people

22:06

happens all the time. Yeah. When I talk about the research that I do, just at parties or gatherings, so many people just say, Oh, yeah, that's my parents. That's my mom. That's my dad. Who never would have said it until I you know, until you have the conversation and say, I get this because this, this happened to me, people recognize that, oh, you're okay to talk about it. So I can be okay to talk about it, too. It's amazing how that tiny Act of, of speaking about it, can connect with someone and give someone an opportunity to say something that they've never said before. So probably those people posting, it was an opportunity I'd never had before.

Joel Kleber  22:49

Yeah, it's quite interesting. I did a video a while ago about it and posted on my own Facebook, my Facebook is closed, right? So it's only with internal people. And I got messages, direct messages from that saying, Oh, my mom had thing. And baba baba was quite interesting. In that that came from it, which is really important to get content out there online, or for someone to at least start putting stuff online. Will it be high profile, whoever. Now I want to talk more about the programs in itself. So what was some of these programs created? What are some of the things you really want to achieve with him? Obviously, you mentioned connecting people who have similar experiences. But what's involved in those programs itself?

23:27

Yeah, so we actually just over this last week, had a couple of meetings to really clarify where we want to go from here. And what what are we trying to achieve? One of our biggest modalities, I guess, the biggest things we use is creativity. So like I said, we have music, art and songwriting workshops. We do story sharing, just talking about what happened but in different ways. So creativity can allow people to do that. Like we said, listening to music is a good way. For some young people listening to music is the only time they can really connect what they're feeling to someone else's feelings. And then painting or creating something is a way to express yourself, like creating a podcast is a way to express what's important to you. Yeah, so those workshops, kids go along, and for a couple of days, they all get together, there's like 20 kids, and they learn how to make music using GarageBand. And they sort of deejay their own songs and they write lyrics. And we've got a music teacher and songwriter who runs the workshop and she sort of helps them each workshop ideas. They do sort of drawing in like creative activities like that, as well. And at the end, they come together and they make one big song together so they kind of have their own little songs that they get to make and one big song another That's really simple is a photography workshop that's for a little bit older adolescents. And they get together and they go out and take photos. And then they come back and learn how to edit those photos. using software. We got some iPads through a grant. So we can use, they can go and use those iPads. So we supply and hoping to, I can't remember what it's called. And I should, but I just found out that there's a big photography competition, that is about expressing mental health experiences through photography, and they want to connect with satellite, and their youth prize is going to be called like the satellite foundation award, which will be really cool. Yeah, so expressing sort of what you see in life through photography, we run camps, which is just like bringing heaps of kids together, doing all sorts of activities. We had one in Anglesey late last year, I'm from jilong. So it meant a lot to be able to run something down here for the kids down in this area, because the satellites been mostly up in Melbourne. And it was started sort of along the peninsula. Yeah, so that was really cool to bring that to Japan, they got to, again, there was lots of art and activities like that. But then we also did some, we planted some plants, I guess, gruesome flowers to sort of talk about self care, and the sorts of things you need to do to look after a plant and the sorts of things you need to do to look after yourself. We did some education type stuff, how to reach out for help, what kind of helpers you have in your life, sort of, on your, like five fingers? Who would you talk to, if you're going through a tough time, including like calling kids helpline? And how do you do that? Those sorts of things. And then, yeah, so that was really awesome, really fun. And the kids get to know each other so well. And then they, they, you know, want to go back on the next camp and want to stay in touch. So we try to stay in touch with them throughout the year and have small cat chaps as well. And then the more the one for the older groups is a young leader program. So a series of workshops and get togethers where young adults can get to know each other share their experiences and learn sort of Yeah, how to be a leader, what does that mean? How do you get a message out there? How do you tell your story in a way that's safe for you? What else sort of how to do group facilitation? So it's kind of like training them up. If they're interested in sort of working in any spaces like that or doing any advocacy, then we connect them opportunities to do that to public speak about what they've been through to sort of spread the message. Yeah, and do some volunteering, that sort of thing. That's really good. programs. Yeah.

Joel Kleber  28:00

Yeah, I can imagine anyone interested go to the website or Facebook, Instagram and check it out. Yeah. Now I want to ask you more about that's quite interesting to me, because I had no like I said, I'm just rambling. So back to myself in the my experience, which is, yes, there's anyone watching or listening is probably thinking the same thing. If there were definitely. So what's like, for me, as a kid, I had no awareness of that this was like a, an issue. So with inside yourself, you get no time to have any interaction is either with the nurses at the psych ward, or let's say, you might be taken in to sit down in a meeting with the psychologist, but they're talking to someone else like yourself. So yes, I think just having that being put in that situation as a young person, right. Everyone here is in a very similar situation, just does wonders for itself alone, just by saying, This is not just me, notes like I was me, or it's, you know, that sort of stuff. It's everyone else is doing this, and what can we do to get better, and also stuff and improve?

28:51

Yeah. And also seeing, we try to have people with lived experience run at or involved, at least in running camps and any other workshops. So like myself, but also other facilitators, we get involved? Because it's kind of a way to see that. You know, maybe some people think that, oh, someone's letting the cat I'm sorry, what was that? Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah. It's just a way to see that, you know, there might be a lot of people who think that I don't have much going for me, you know, some kids have a lot going on. It's not just that a parent has a mental illness, but they struggle a lot with poverty, they might not get a lot of opportunities from that perspective. And a lot of people might look at them and not think that they're going to make very much of themselves and they might think of themselves, and that's one of the status things, I think. So the ability to see it's sort of like a mentoring containing the ability to see Someone who's actually doing awesome stuff. They have this experience, but they've overcome it. And they're making something of their lives that that matters to them. Is, is amazing. It's beautiful to speak to a young person, like there were some moments on the camera, I got to speak to some adolescents about what they were going through. And let them know that I understood what they meant. And I was there as a volunteer because I care deeply about making their experience different and the way that they received that just the, the recognition in their eyes and sort of recognizing that, hey, maybe I can do some more. And these are people who care about me and want me to see, you know, want me to do great things in life is, yeah, it's pretty awesome.

Joel Kleber  30:49

Play what he said about the lived experience is absolutely key. Because I growing up if that's what that's the big thing for me, it was all our psychologists were trying to talk to us like, Well, did you have someone with this situation? As soon as I said, No, yeah, I'll just shut down. And we'll listen to them. Because it's not something that I think the lived experience thing is really, really important, which is why I hope, if anyone listens or watches this, who's not who has a similar experience is to try and get involved. So I want to talk about now. So someone, let's say someone like me, or whoever else wants to actually do something about it or stop giving up their time? Is it just purely a donation thing? or How can people get involved if we were in similar situations?

31:23

Yeah. So I think if you're around, Victoria, you can definitely reach out to satellite Foundation, through their website, through our website. And through the Instagram just shoot us a message saying that you'd love to help. When we run camps, we look for volunteers, the camps. We've had some volunteers who, yeah, like you say, through their life, they've had their own kids, but this was their experience, and they never got a chance to go on a camp with other kids who get it. So they come along and help out. But then we've also had volunteers who don't have that experience. And seeing them learn and seeing them recognize how strong and awesome the kids on our kids are, is really cool as well. So get involved in that way. I think having a conversation with people you trust to so if it doesn't involve satellite, or you're not near us. Yeah, just have a conversation with people you trust. Let them know, if you trust them that this is your experience. And like you say, you might be very surprised, who says, Yeah, me too. Obviously, we always need funding. So if you're in a position to do some fundraising in any way, you're at your office or with, with family or friends, shooting some funding our way we make sure that every dollar goes to making sure our camps are great. Get to know the kid involved with a workshop. So every dollar kind of really counts when you're in a small organization, and goes a long way we make it go a long way. So yeah, fundraising reaching out to volunteer, or literally just spreading the word that this is a thing, and we can do some more about it.

Joel Kleber  33:07

And I want to touch on now you're, you're doing a Master's? We're doing a doctorate in. Yeah. Doing a doctorate. Yeah. Was that obviously inspired by your childhood to go on that sort of path? or?

33:19

Yeah, I think so. I've always been really interested in like, what makes people tick? Why do people love what they love? I always think I had this math teacher who was like, obsessed with trigonometry. And I didn't like it at all. And he just loved it. So I was like, really fascinated by that. But, I mean, yeah, one of the things that definitely drives me towards it is wanting to figure out well, how do I make people's lives easier than mine was easier than my dad's was. So yeah, championing these sorts of issues. I tried to do that. I tried to speak up about them when I'm on placement. I try to speak up about them when I'm in classes, and hope that I've actually teaching my fellow students a little bit along the way as well.

Joel Kleber  34:07

So one of the responses you're finding from people when you share it?

34:12

You know, people people get it. You know, like we said, People say, Yeah, me too. Some people don't necessarily they go like, Oh, yeah, maybe didn't recognize that that was as big of an issue as it is. I think I asked them what they thought would be the biggest barriers but like what gets in the way of people like you, or people who want to want to help, they're all there because they want to help but stops them from actually reaching out to kids and families. And, you know, they all felt like probably it's not knowing what to do or what to say, or where to go to to actually provide that support. If they can't do it, where else do I direct it to? So, yeah, not really knowing how to handle it is probably what came up the most other than Yeah, I get it. Me too.

Joel Kleber  35:12

Now, but I want to currently talk about, you mentioned the the Royal Commission stuff and, and so what's been happening so I don't know about your experience, but back in the day is basically you know, parent committed to the psychiatric ward, you have a guardian B foster home or wherever else and that was it like there's no, no one to check in on you or anything like that which I found it frustrating or you've gone to the psychiatric ward, let's say with the foster person or the Guardian, and you have to see your doctor and talk to you that would just talk to the person and you would be ignored. And that was it. Even from a social work perspective, it wasn't much Social Work intervention. So this sort of trying to see because you have a bit more a lot more knowledge about it than me regards to how everything works at the moment. What's the current situation right now? Let's say it was a similar situation for you or for me? what's currently happening at the moment?

35:56

Yeah, so I was involved in, like I said, emerging minds, they make a lot of resources for places like places like schools, places like psych wards or hospitals, resources for both, like people who work there, and also for the parents and families in how to manage these situations. So in the last year, I was involved in sort of proofreading one of those documents, and some of those documents about how do you get kids in to visit their parents? How do you kind of navigate those situations, so they're really committed to getting the lived experience perspective, which is awesome. And I try when, when those opportunities come up, to share them with as many people who I know, have this experience and get perspective so that I can kind of get across, you know, a really rich, helpful opinion. So what they they've got, now, some places have family rooms, so they'll get you into Yeah, nicer space. So you don't have to walk through all the whole hospital which can be quite confronting for a young person. But also they they actually put an effort into connecting parents with their kids while they're in there. So getting them to write letters, getting them to make phone calls, and also and facilitating that helping it happen. And not just yeah, basically ignoring it, which is potentially what you what what used to happen, and unfortunately, might still happen in some places. In sort of one on one work, you can just ask, you can just ask someone if they're a parent, and you can ask someone if their parent has a mental illness. And then with that information, you can say, you know, is there someone you want involved in our support together? Is there someone that's really important for that? And if you sort of think in the back of your mind, well, sounds like, you know, maybe the kids need some support, or it sounds like maybe it would be great. If we could all get together, then you suggest those sorts of things. Obviously, you need consent for all these sorts of things as well, to involve other people. But it's more and more recognized as really important to engage families in what happens when people leave hospital, for example, because what's happened in the past, and what happened to my family was that I was quite young, but my mum wasn't really spoken to about what would happen when dad came out of hospital a few times. So she wasn't prepared. And as a family, you know, we didn't feel prepared to have that happen. And you can imagine if someone's a single parent, and that happens to their kids, there's probably not of not a lot of conversation that happens. Like, how do you feel about them coming out? What do you need in place to make life easier for you? So those sorts of things should be happening now. And there's good policies, there's some really clear guidelines, both from both in research but also yet policies, I can link those to you. I can't remember that off the top of my head, but I can link them to you. So you can like, show people we know now and it's, we know what to do. But it's just getting people practicing doing it.

Joel Kleber  39:13

Yeah. Now it's very interesting, because um, yeah, we had a single mom, so just come out of hospital and that was it. She come home and slept mom's home. And that's, that's it. That's all you know, we go back to normal. Yeah. So it was very interesting. So what's what research are you finding? Interesting at the moment, you obviously read a lot of research papers and stuff like that. But is there anything that you find quite interesting, or?

39:35

Well, I'm finding my research really interesting at the moment, that's most of mostly what I'm talking about you already? Yeah. Yeah, I'm looking at self compassion amongst children who have parents with mental illness. So I've looked at all the published articles that are sort of describing what children go through and having a look at Well, this self compassion come up in that. And so self compassion is basically having a balanced awareness of what you're going through in hard times and recognizing your need for sort of comfort, and then offering yourself kindness and comfort in response. So a lot of people either shut down their negative emotions, they kind of bottle things up. They might think that they don't deserve care or support, they might be harsh on themselves when they're going through a hard time. Particularly for kids who have parents with mental illness, they might do a lot of caring, and then they feel guilty for needing care themselves. So that's, I've been looking into that a bit. And then I got to do some interviews with some young adults about what do they think about self compassion? Do they think it's any good? Do they think it's a bit of rubbish? How could it be helpful, you know, unhelpful? So? Yeah, I'm in the process of kind of analyzing what's come out of that, but definitely, our society doesn't help us be very self compassionate. You know, it's, it's sort of celebrated to be really busy and celebrated to be a bit tough on yourself. Definitely, in a sporting context that I've come from, that's my experience. So yeah, maybe we can do a bit more to share how we look after ourselves more publicly. And also maybe incorporate some of these concepts of actually checking in with you how you feeling and offering yourself care, even though and even when you need to look after the people around you. So I'm really interested in that in the moment. Yeah.

Joel Kleber  41:43

That's good. So what are some of the things you meet so many young people or young adults and the same person or situation? What are some common themes or some common things that you're finding out that those people share in common? Yeah.

41:56

Definitely the feeling of, you know, not knowing anything like this existed. So not knowing that something like satellite existed, not not really knowing or recognizing how many other people go through these experiences. Feeling, then isolated by that, like not being able to talk openly to friends will get support the support that they need. Sometimes there's expectations put on young people to sort of, especially when they get a bit older, to be the carer. And then I know some people who live into state from their parents, and when they're involved in the parents care, they get a bit of backlash from the workers for not being, you know, not living where their parent lives. So there's a bit of pressure actually to assume those caring roles and kind of not get on with your own life, or, you know, kind of do both at once. So that's something too, that it's really hard to be your own person. Sometimes when someone in your family takes up so much space, and they need support.

Joel Kleber  43:09

Yeah, and we love right. Sorry to interrupt, but I completely agree. And the right what I say is I Mom, I'm very lucky, my mom had 11, one of 11. So there she was in a small country, town and horrible. So they're all there. So I'm very lucky because it would have been heavy stuff. But I always very cynical, even to recently, I say I've paid my dues. Now. So I'm in Melbourne, I'm doing my thing I paid my dues are paid my dues. Apologies, someone else's problem. So I can completely relate. That's what you said. Yeah. So I'm sorry for interruption.

43:35

No, no, that's great. Because it's, it is true, it's like and he shouldn't even really have to say I pay my dues, but we kind of, you know, you you love your family as much as they might want to, might make you want to tear your hair out. Sometimes we love our families, and we would do anything for them. But that can mean that you don't do anything for yourself. And sometimes it's necessary to like branch out and do things for you so that you literally can get back when you're when you've got your feet under you to keep helping from time to time. And I think that's totally fine and totally fair enough. And kids should be able to be kids and they should be able to grow up and be young adults and makes make bad decisions if they want to a bit and not have to you know where the weight of the world on their shoulders all the time.

Joel Kleber  44:26

You know, the one line he said which is really really potent as the kid should be kids thing and I think a lot of people don't realize is when you're exposed to such a like in like, the comments, a lot of my tassel you see in a normal family, right? See my birth parents work or this, you know, whatever. It's a fairly normal sort of environment. And you go from that in your environment. You're sort of going well why is why do I Why is mine like this everywhere else, it goes like this. And it's one of those things is trying to almost your kids be kids because you do from a young age, you soon become really aware that you're is not the same as the present for like, well, I can't see why can't he just be normal? Like everyone else, you know, this look, sometimes all that mindset, especially going up and it can lead to a lot of things I don't know about you, but I definitely Jagga played the victim a lot, you know? Yeah, well, against me all that sort of stuff and was it so very, very much you once left sort of fell out of that and sort of said, Well, I personally looked at as a positive. So I think growing up like a parent in that situation, you are definitely a lot more resilient. And you're very, I think, normal kids are resilient and adaptable. Yeah, and so much change I have to get used to. So I think that's the way I sort of look at it, that sort of a strength, as opposed to a weakness.

45:40

Yeah, so. So those are definitely things that come up a lot as well. And definitely, in the recent research, I've been doing that idea of like, your family's not normal, you're different. But it's not just a different, it's that there's something wrong with your family and who you are because of that. So that comes on a lot. And it's also fairly typical of adolescence, to feel like they're, like, Woe is me, you know, why is all this bad stuff happened to me and feel pretty alone in what they're going through. So that's fairly like typical. But then there's another layer of that, when there's actually you know, a lot of stuff going on, and you're actually having to make pretty massive decisions about the health and, you know, the life of your parent or a loved one. So, there's some kids who are really involved in caring for their siblings as well. So that can come up as well for them. But yeah, and again, you're totally right, that that resilience that you get from overcoming really hard stuff, puts you in good stead for the rest of your life, you have a perspective about the world that you wouldn't otherwise have. You know, you work really hard for what you want, and you appreciate the good people that you have in your life. That's why my family is so important to me, because, you know, I've been through so much with them. And obviously, having lost my my dad, it means a lot to keep those people close to me. But yeah, I think that going through really hard things made me really focused at times, because if I get into the zone with something, it meant that I wasn't thinking about like the swirling, you know, dangers around me. Or the what ifs of what what could come next. So that happened with sport that happen with schoolwork for me. And like I said, I loved singing and I love drama. And so it made I got really stuck into things. And now I'm really stuck into doing this research and this work. And I'm so passionate about it, because I hope that other young people who have grown up in similar circumstances to me, and I've been pretty lucky, I've had my mum, and you know, I've had a roof over my head, I've been able to go to a good school and, and do things like sport, drama, that a lot of kids don't get all those opportunities. So I would love to be part of making that their lives better and more full of potential and yet helping them achieve their dreams and their goals.

Joel Kleber  48:33

Now, that's very important. That's a great, that's a great thing to say. And that's what's really cool get out, obviously, you do research you put a lot of people if we touch this up daily probably do We're fine. Again, when you when you talk directly to a psychologist or psychologist or what do they say about the situation or the family unit specifically? As in what are their opinions on? What do I need? Or has it sort of how can I help? Or do they have any interest at all? Because I remember talking to a few few people down in denim wantable, who run the programs down there. And they are basically said to me? Look, I've got no real interest in that. I know, that's probably not the case. But that was that was what I was told. So I'm just trying to get into the current. What's the current? Like, if this is the trading psychiatry of the parent? What's their current involvement? Or what are they thinking about when there's kids involved in the situation? How do I handle that if they even considered? No?

49:27

Yeah, so unfortunately, it varies a lot. There probably people who work in a very one on one way and they think, you know, only, you know, I only do what I can and I think in a lot of public sectors, it is like you have to do a lot with potentially very little. So you know, I recognize those those challenges, but yeah, so some people aren't doing a lot in terms of reaching out to Families are doing much about the kids. So they might just ask the parent, how's your kid going? And they might say, they're fine. And then it's like, oh, job's done. Which is one thing to do, it's good to ask. But we also know that a lot of kids don't tell their parents if they're struggling, that's sort of what I've gleaned from my reading. And talking to people, you sort of, you know, you're the strong one in the family, you don't you don't make waves, because it makes your own life easier and life easier for your family. But that means that just asking someone else, how you doing someone else asking about you, your parent doesn't necessarily know that you need help. So some workers will speak directly to kids speak directly to other people in the household. Maybe just once to touch base. And you know, it may very well be that a kid doesn't want to be involved. But other options are linking them with other services. So fortunately, now we have in Victoria, we've got affect me program, which is families affected by parental mental illness, there's a lot of acronyms, unfortunately, Well, sort of. But that's held up by actually rose calf who is the founder of satellite, so she's also the statewide fattening coordinator. And what they do, they go out into, they've got someone in a lot of different areas of Victoria, or different people in different areas who are basically like, they hold a lot of knowledge about what it's like, they hold a lot of knowledge about what programs exist. And so if a mental health worker wasn't sure what to do, they could go to that person and ask them for advice or guidance. That person should be delivering sort of education in the organization that they work in. Yeah, I also know of one good thing that's being done that I've been a little bit tiny bit involved in is they're trying to get a mental health worker in every school in Victoria. And origin is helping out writing that program. And they're going to specifically make some materials that are about how do you identify when a child in the school or student has this experience at home? And if that's the case, what what can we do? So I was have been involved in helping them do that. But that's a big project that's happening. And I think that would be awesome. There was just someone in every school who could support teachers with what to do, because like we said earlier, teachers have a lot of knowledge of what's going on, but they might not know exactly what to do about it. So I think that person will be really important from that perspective to

Joel Kleber  52:44

that's a quite an interesting development, actually. And that would go a long way, I guess, to D, stigmatizing him for the parents themselves, knowing that that's involved in the school, and for the teachers that's quite big is that it's Wednesday? Is there an estimate on that as a just sort of something that they're working on now?

52:57

Well, I don't know. I don't know when but I think hopefully in the next year, they're going to try and roll that out. And so this was just one part of that program to sort of have some materials about and some training in how to help kids who are in this circumstance. Yeah, and just sort of what sort of stuff could be helpful from a school perspective, because I don't know the mental health sector doesn't need to hold everything, it would be great if more people in the community, not just people working in the mental health settings, knew about this stuff, and could could do some help. Because like we said, it's so common, that kids might not need to go and see a psychologist or social worker, they might just need to have a trusted teacher at school who checks in on them every now and again. I definitely know I had teachers who sort of knew what was going on. For me, there were teachers who I wouldn't dream of talking to, but some that were really, really nice and helpful and good to know. They're in your corner. So I think that that will be a really good thing.

Joel Kleber  54:03

Yeah. And I completely agree. I had a similar experience with Moscow. So it was a small town in wantable, and I was similar people looking out for your and you're right, you might not have liked them or whatever. But they did have your best interests. And they got me out of a lot of trouble, especially at school. Yeah. Robin. Yeah. I completely agree with that. And now that sounds quite exciting to you involvement was that was the, you were advising over you consulting on that side of what you know, just for that.

54:29

Yeah, just doing a little bit of consulting. So giving them an example sort of case. You know, an example of a young person who might not obviously look like they need a bit of help, but maybe they do need a bit of a check in. And once they've got some things together, they'll send them through and I'll have a little look through and make sure that they're sort of speaking from the speaking with the heart of the lived experience in mind and I try to you know, I like I said, I carry The experiences of other people that I've spoken with, but these are really great initiatives that are going on already different organizations, particularly fat me trying to reach out and talk to people who get it and get their expertise in onboard these sorts of projects, because it's really important, we can't just have, we can just have all these interventions or whatever made up without any of the actual experience at the heart of them. So it's pretty good. I

Joel Kleber  55:30

think it's, I think it's quite interesting, because it's very hard to say, like, as you said, how to measure the impact bit, you know, just hearing this sort of stuff and having it if I was in, I'm just thinking about my experience, because that's what can relate to having that sort of stuff at a young age would have definitely helped me out I hate and I can imagine a lot of other people and they might have made certain life choices based on you know, what was going on and which has affected right through it to adulthood, they might not have as good a job prospects, they might be abuse, substance abuse problems, there could be various things, which could have maybe been avoided if there was some sort of networking or some sort of like something like what you are involved in, at that stage in life, which obviously helps the economy and also suffered baffles me. Yeah, as he was saying, but the numbers that people who are in the position who write the checks, and allocate the money, there's not more money at all allocated to this sort of stuff, which I just find quite fascinating.

56:19

Fortunately, also, this recent, I did hear carers mentioned in this recent COVID-19 extra funding thing. So I don't know exactly what that looks like. But hopefully it will mean that there's a bit more funding put into support for young kids who take on various levels of caring at home, and sometimes that aren't those cares. But yeah, yeah, that's

Joel Kleber  56:44

pretty much it. Yeah. Well, you said that Sorry, I was gonna stop exactly interrupted exactly the same point. What is again, error? Why don't I understand for themselves? Is it clear when I, I probably are the most emotional support person in a way, but they don't recognize it at all, because they might be 12 years old, or 14 years old, or whatever it is.

57:02

And also, whilst they might recognize that their family might not look like their mates, family, some kids don't feel like their family is different. Sometimes kids have always lived that way. And it's like they're normal. So helping a parent with medication or getting them up to go to work or feeding their siblings or sort of doing a bit more, a few more chores than maybe the kids would be doing. And they don't recognize themselves as young carers, I definitely didn't recognize myself as a young carer. But I've always been a person in my family who's checked on my family members emotionally, like how you going and listen to them and offered care. From that perspective, it's difficult because, you know, if you put a label to something, it's much easier to give it funding. It's like with the mental health care plan, you have to have a mental health diagnosis attached to you labeled to you to get that funding support. And there's a school of thinking that reckons that diagnoses aren't that great in some circumstances. So the idea of having to label kids at a really young age, um, you know, I wonder about it sometimes. So satellite doesn't use young Kara title. But there are other organizations that do and it does help them get good funding, because like I said, Now there's a bit more of a government incentive and a government initiative to fund those sorts of things. So basically, it's any young person who offers care whether it be practical, kind of obvious overt care, like medication, or getting their parents up calling the ambulance if they need to go to hospital, those sorts of things. All the way to your checking on their mental health, because a lot of it's surprising to me, because it wasn't my experience, but a lot of young kids don't need to check in on how their parents mental health is. And then they don't get in the habit. That's not something they do. But for someone who that was like normal to me, it's kind of hard to think of not doing that. But yeah, so that's sort of what it means. It's quite vague. But the labeling helps the funding.

Joel Kleber  59:29

What's the support? So what happens with the funding server to young care or care in that situation? What then happens with that?

59:36

So I mean, there's Centrelink payments now, for carers, including young carers, so

59:44

it's like a,

59:47

like a Youth Allowance or like a yes, dole sort of thing. income support payments that help them basically survive. And also, yeah, help them survive. While they're dedicating a lot of their time, to their caring responsibilities, obviously, you have to jump through a lot of hoops to get that and you have to be engaged in doing that caring work at a certain level, potentially, it's not something that I've applied for or looked at myself, but I imagine you have to. But then yeah, there are some organizations, like little dreamers, helps kids who provide any sort of care to siblings, or parents or family members, for anything. So they also support children whose family members have physical disabilities, cognitive disabilities, somatic illnesses, like cancer, or ms, or all sorts of things. So they definitely cover a wider array of experiences. Were satellites really specifically for this group of children who have a parent with a mental illness, I think that it's important to hold that space, because I think it's a unique experience. And it's different than other experiences. Because we know that when I know personally, that when a parent has cancer, they there's a lot of support for children. And there are some really fantastic organizations involved in delivering that care. And it's talked about differently. It's a, it's awful, nothing's better or worse than anything else. But it's, it's got a different layer of social, no judgment on it, then a child who has a parent with a mental illness who probably can't tell people, that's what's going on at home, because it carries with it a lot of judgment. So I think it's really important to hold that space in a unique way, because it does come with a different kinds of challenges for kids.

Joel Kleber  1:02:01

So you say not just transplant that content, that's already all that stuff that's already happening in that space to either across it is a completely unique, bought out separate, isolated, almost plan or programs in place. Yeah,

1:02:13

well, some of the stuff is really comparable. Some of the actual activities you do with kids helping them with how they'd, if they were really stressed out? How do you help them slow their breathing down? What kinds of activities can they do that make them feel better, like getting out and doing exercise or whatever. So some of that stuff is really similar. But then obviously, the education might be different. It's really important to give children who have a parent with mental illness, information about what's going on. And that information is obviously different. But then I guess, having groups that have that experience together, so satellite, just being an organization that has those kinds of groups, I think is really good, because there's a real shared experience. So if the experiences were super varied across the spectrum of any kind of health related challenges in the family, those experiences might be different. And I think there's those connections might be different. And I think there's so much space for that. It's great that that's happening in different organizations, that there's a real broad perspective. But I think it's also good to have have a space that's just for this, this group, and they can just get to know each other and everybody gets what it's like to have a parent where there's a bit of stigma around what's going on at home. I think that that's right, I think all is good. But yeah, I think it's good to be both.

Joel Kleber  1:03:44

Yeah, I think I think that's exactly why we didn't just gain those people together in the same area. And obviously, having the same experience just by itself is very powerful. And how can you get yourself into more of the networking's into more of those minds of those healthcare providers and regional areas or other cities or states, all that sort of stuff as well, I think some really worthwhile mission. So we'll leave it there for today, I reckon early. So thanks for all the information you provided to me as well and going and going into depth really much appreciate and hopefully people a lot more where they want to find out more at satellite foundation. Victor can just punch into Google and you guys have Facebook, Instagram as well. Yeah, well, they're all there is. And then let's say to someone in other states or territories, what's the best thing for them to do? Is it just to punch into Google? what's what's what do they want? What do they need to look up to get connected in their state or their area?

1:04:35

Um, I would look up emerging minds would probably help connect them with what's going on right in their local area. So contact through emerging minds. I know that kookaburra kids is an organization that was sort of primarily set up to help children of parents who are in the defense forces but they also to support children who have parents who have mental illness, so sorry, parents who experienced mental illness as a sort of associated with their experiences in the Defence Force. So they help but across the board as well. So they're in New South Wales, and they've also branched out into other states. Also, yeah, what do they say little dreamers might be appropriate, and they're in a few different states, predominantly in Victoria, I think, but they've also branched out thanks to some funding. So you might have seen kookaburra, kids when the Invictus Games was on they got a, they got a bunch of funding around that. And they were on the news a little bit, which was good. Yeah, so there are a few other organizations that I know of, but if you're not in one of those spaces, get online, look up emerging minds. or hopefully, you can chat to your GP, if you if you can chat to a GP about what they recommend, like really in your local area, if that's what you need.

Joel Kleber  1:05:59

Was there much stuff online that you found? Now recently that, let's say would be helpful? Or is it anything online? Or any sort of podcasts or anything like that, that you can think of? That you've come across?

1:06:09

Yeah, not podcast. I mean, there, there are sort of, there are some good movies, not that they necessarily come to mind. But there are. There are some good movies out there that are sort of about the experiences like what's that movie about a boy, that's sort of relevant. So those sorts of things are nice to watch and connect with. I don't do much googling in this space. But there are some good resources, like I said, on emerging minds, we're trying to get some on satellite Foundation's website and that sort of thing. But yeah, go to those sorts of locations to get really detailed information. Yeah, there's another name of one of the satellite foundation ambassadors has a podcast about his experience. But I've forgotten what it's called. So again, I can link it to you.

Joel Kleber  1:07:00

Fair enough. Send it through. Yeah. So we're also researching a lot of this stuff. That's half the reason why I want to do some do some content around just because I've been into YouTube and just typed in, I thought they'd be some nice, polished videos with substantial amount of views. And there's really not a lot. It's just basically, there's some other psychologists talking about in front of the camera, or something. So I'm just talking to a camera. Really, it's not something that I've seen where there's any one sort of source of authority on YouTube or any of that video content on bond? Well, that's Yes. Where this is a topic which I found quite interesting, just due to the number of people who would have experienced it.

1:07:34

Yeah, it's not yet sort of, again, it comes back to that idea of how actually prevalent it is in our community. That it's surprising that it doesn't come up in campaigns about mental illness, or just generally an information about mental illness. It's not like a family goes through it. It's like the one person. It seems to be a lot of people talking about mates who have had struggles, which is great, too, particularly with guys talking about, like connecting with their mates and talking about things. Again, which is really important to have, I think there's a little bit on, pucker up. Is that how you say it? I think they've got a little information about yet, like dads. But yeah, I don't think there's a great deal in this in this space. And a lot of the really public campaigns don't specifically reach out to this topic. So I think it's great.

Joel Kleber  1:08:32

Yeah, well, I find it interesting, because I had a guy, one of my kids was Simon Hogan who play for too long. And he was the head space ambassador for Yeah, when was playing for the cat, he retired due to depression. And he has been recently diagnosed with bipolar, bipolar two. And we'll say the same thing. Like he was involved with his space and beyondblue, and all that sort of stuff. And during these campaigns for the bathroom, and things, and he's also said to me, I said, it's quite amazing to me like, it's all it's quite interesting how there's all these organizations there for men, for example, and for women is all about that. But there's nothing that's gone ever beyond that, which I just find, what was your stats gonna be on that now, but I mean, like a really well known organization that has gone beyond that. It is the family unit on to the kids and stuff, which is something of the same note, as let's say, beyondblue over headspace or something like that?

1:09:20

Yeah, there are some specific websites that might touch on it, maybe like the black dog Institute, and I know the butterfly Foundation, which is when family members have eating disorders that talk quite a bit about families, because there are probably some conditions or some experiences disorders that it's more understood that it impacts the whole family unit. By but I you know, I would definitely agree that I think, across the board, there's some sort of involvement of families and if we think in that in That way looking at a whole, like system perspective families and schools and society, you know, that definitely brings children into the picture. And it's not done very much. So yeah, I think some headspace is have some programs for kids. But again, headspace is are really different are funded differently separately and have their own separate programs. So you'd have to know your area. And hopefully, if you did reach out to them, they put you in contact with one of those great faculty workers, because I've met lots of them. They're amazing, intelligent, helpful people. But yeah, there's only one of them in different areas of Victoria. So

Joel Kleber  1:10:42

that is too many of the base, is it sort of something that you guys would like, and that's a part of the bigger organization, let's say, because sometimes they're almost brands themselves, right? So beyondblue is, I would call it a brand. And it's a brand associated with one thing, or let's say anxiety and depression, but you think they should have the ability to then expand let's say, their portfolio most than away with the amount of content or stuff they have a lot of the messaging or what do you think about school stuff?

1:11:06

Yeah, I guess that's like it. Yeah, sort of connection merger type thing. And it's always interesting to think about that. And whether you retain your, the core of what you do when you connect in those ways, with big organizations that have lots of overheads and have lots of their own interests. And maybe specific interests, like you say, anxiety, depression, doesn't cover the experiences of kids whose parents have schizophrenia, or eating disorders or substance use just lots of different things, basically. So but it is definitely an avenue to getting more funding and getting out there. Because a lot of the time those massive organizations get all the funding because they're known of. But unfortunately, on those massive levels, you've also got big overheads, and probably less like, how do we spend every dollar really carefully, whereas in little organizations, you spend every dollar really mindfully and work really closely, indirectly, with with your consumers, the people who you meet. So there's sort of those pros and cons with big and small organizations. And I guess that's why I advocate anyone to check out your local small organizations such as satellite, but on a lot of different fronts. Know how they spend their money. And when, when and if you can invest your time finances, whatever, into those small ones, because I I've seen that it makes it goes there, that potentially goes a long way. And yeah, we try really hard to make it go a long way.

Joel Kleber  1:12:52

So if anyone's listening, obviously, Google satellite, and obviously all the money goes straight to running the programs and that sort of stuff. There's no, as you said, Every dollar was really well accounted for, with the noise.

1:13:05

Just trying to get out, yeah, get our car to get something so she can keep doing the work. She's doing that. It's lots of volunteer work so far. So yeah.

Joel Kleber  1:13:15

Thank you. Thank you very much for your time. Today, I think we've gone for an hour and a half. And I really do appreciate it for anyone who's interested to Google, the various organizations mentioned and we'll put a few links to the into the description there. And hopefully, if anyone's watching wants to get involved, they can look you up if there's anything you want to leave us with today or do anything. I don't know that you want to follow note before we sign off.

1:13:36

Well, no, thank you so much. It's so great, what you're doing and giving a different you know, giving a less like clinical perspective on this thing is really important. And hearing different voices on on this topic. So thank you and yeah, to anyone watching. Thanks for watching all the way through. And yeah, if you can put some money puts money in if you can't just spread the word. Yeah.

Joel Kleber  1:14:06

Thanks, buddy. We'll leave it there. Thank you very much.