Joel Kleber: 0:02

Kerry Atherton, thank you very much for joining me today the lived experience. And you've just come out of a new book, which is stories of hope, volume three, and had a book launch in multiple cities as well, for Mirjana, give people a bit of a background about who you are, and how are you involved in mental health?

Kerrie Atherton: 0:19

Thanks, Joel. So I've been a counselor for around 15 years, and entailed with that also had a lived experience speaker, and also a Mental Health First Aid trainer. And around six years ago, I started a stories of hope, movement, which was events, local events for people in the community that were going through hard times, so that they could find hope, and also know that they're not alone in their pain. And out of that has come through books,

Joel Kleber: 0:52

and how and how, and when you say lived experience speakers, well, what is your lived experience in, in the field?

Kerrie Atherton: 0:59

Well, I've got a lot of lived experience. You know, I've got a lot of lived experience, especially around the top three mental health conditions, which is anxiety disorder, depressive disorder, and substance abuse. And I've suffered from a lot of depression through my life, a lot of anxiety, especially in the later years. And I was a pill addict and an alcoholic. And at age 18, I came to a crossroad in my life where it was really death or sobriety. And I chose sobriety. And I've been sober and clean ever since that day.

Joel Kleber: 1:37

How do you pull yourself out of that? Because that is such an early age, like, you know, not many people, you know, might not do it to like they're 50 or something was you you were able to do it, I don't how are you able to be mature enough to do it, or what happened around that time,

Kerrie Atherton: 1:49

I guess I just became that desperate, I'd grown up in a home with two alcoholic parents. And my dad got sober before I was born because he saw both his parents die from alcoholism, before in their 40s and 50s. And my mom was an alcoholic and also had bipolar. And so growing up very aware of problems in the family. At 10, I had a breakdown, and my parents took me to a psychiatrist who put me on anti anxiety, medication and antidepressants. And I guess, Alcoholics Anonymous was always part of our life as a family. And my dad got sober there, and were there from before I was born. And my mum got sober when I was 12 years old. And they actually took me to Alateen, which is for children of alcoholics. So I was aware that there was a place for help. But at the time that I was introduced to this, and also my dad took me along to some meetings when I was 15, and 16. Because three months after I started drinking, everybody connected to my family told me I was an alcoholic. And I couldn't believe it that at 15, I could be an alcoholic. But I went along to a couple of meetings, and I knew that the program was there. But it wasn't for me. I didn't think I was an alcoholic. And I didn't think my life was that bad. And it really took three years, you know, everyone has to come to a rock bottom before they'll make a change in their life. And my rock bottom came at 18. After, you know, I went through some very, very difficult situations in relation to my addiction. And I hated the person that I was. I hated the things that had happened to me. And I just didn't want to be alive anymore.

Joel Kleber: 3:46

Thanks for sharing that very powerful. And you mentioned that your mom had bipolar disorder. So there's some I can relate to is my mom had bipolar disorder one so I grew up with that but she couldn't drink because if she drank she it was not good for her mental health. So how was it with your mum being an alcoholic plus having bipolar disorder, I could imagine how was that

Kerrie Atherton: 4:05

was very explosive. She, you know, couldn't she she was a fantastic mom. Like she was a high functioning alcoholic at the time. She made all our clothes, she worked she she did everything. But she would have these explosive outbursts where she just go nuts, you know and smash pans for hours and scream and take off leave the house. We didn't know where she was going or not, you know often thought that I wasn't going to see her again. And when I was seven, I actually witnessed her being electrocuted. And she came back to life but that was just a horrific and traumatic experience for me. But she used to drink at night. So my memories. I can't really remember her seeing her actually drunk but I Remember, it's just so many nights where I would say to dad as a little kid, you know, where's mum? And he would say, Oh, she's, she's not well, well, she's got a headache. And now I know she was in the bedroom drunk. And I didn't really, you know, see much of her at night until I was about 12. And when things really changed, but she was always like living on eggshells, treading on eggshells, and you could never predict the atmosphere. I didn't know when she was going to be good, and when she wasn't going to be good, and I grew up, very, very insecure as a result of that.

Joel Kleber: 5:38

How'd you deal with it? Did you have any strategies when you're growing up? Was it something you just tried to avoid? Or you knew not to go into the room? Maybe the certain times? Or how did you? How did you manage your own your own life?

Kerrie Atherton: 5:49

Well, I was pretty quiet, very, very close to my dad. And we were both musicians. My dad got me piano lessons at seven. So most of my early childhood, you know, my bonding was probably with my dad, and we would, you know, jam he would play, he was a jazz saxophone player, and I was a piano player. And we played music together all the time. He told me about the hard stuff in life. And I had two brothers. I don't, I don't know, you know, a lot of my childhood is blurred, because also being medicated at the age of 10, I really started to rely on that medication to just dumb me out and dull life out. So I started to tell my parents that I kept losing my tablets, because I was taking more and more to try. And I was also being bullied at school. And I just felt like, I was terrified after an experience that happened to me when I was nine also. And it was a situation something that happened to me when I was on holidays. But the person knew where we lived. And most people have a hate hate safe haven at school or at home, but I just didn't feel like I had one anywhere. And I just live I was terrified. We have a lot of happy memories of you know, my childhood and my parents. And my mum was never, like physically abusive towards me or anything. But there was a lot of times where I would do the wrong thing. And she wouldn't speak to me for a few days, you know, and that just that not knowing how to ever make that right was really heartbreaking. As a kid,

Joel Kleber: 7:34

did you want to explain to you what bipolar was or go into much healthier and helping you understand the condition?

Kerrie Atherton: 7:39

No, and my mum was under the care of the psychiatrists, my dad was under the care of the psychiatrist. So I guess I just back then, in my young years thought, or maybe the psychiatrist is just helping all of us, but back then it was called manic depression. And so I knew that term that my mom had manic depression, but I didn't. Now I know that to be bipolar. And she didn't say much have extreme highs. But she did have highs where she would be very high functioning. But the lows were

Joel Kleber: 8:18

a lot. Yeah. Was she bipolar? Two then maybe because is bipolar. One, two, and there's another two is more flat? And then one's more more money?

Kerrie Atherton: 8:27

Yeah, I think she was definitely the more flat Yeah. And it was never diagnosed. Is that back then? But only that I know that now. I know that that's, you know what she suffered from?

Joel Kleber: 8:40

And did the psychiatrist ever involved? Or there was a trading you as well? Did you he involve you much in your, your mum's tell you what's going on? Or not really well?

Kerrie Atherton: 8:50

No, it was more to deal with my fears that I was going through, and the anxiety that I was going through. And I said to my parents, when I had enough it was after I'd stopped drinking or about why just send me to a psychiatrist. And they actually said, if we didn't send you there, we thought you would end your life.

Joel Kleber: 9:12

And how's that hearing that from your parents?

Kerrie Atherton: 9:15

was real? A real was a real shock. And I guess I'll just give a trigger warning here. You know that that's really talking about suicide. I knew there was many days in my teenage years that I wanted to. I thought about not waking up in the morning. That thought of waking up in the morning for me was terrifying. And I often used to wish that I'd go to sleep and not wake up. And then when I'd wake up, I had this gut wrenching despair about going through another day. But the psychiatrists was, as far as I knew was helping me with my problems, but we never really actually had like family interventions to

Joel Kleber: 10:01

The school know much about it to help you. Because the bullying at school thing I've heard a few times we've now done these interviews, and I'm pulling it spilling at school seems to be a common theme, unfortunately. Did the school help you in any way? Or was there no, nothing from there?

Kerrie Atherton: 10:16

No, nothing there. And actually, when I reported a girl that had one of the girls that had been bullying me, it was turned around on me and the teacher, I think she was in second or third class at the time, the teacher had had a nervous breakdown also. And she basically made a spectacle of me and made me stand with my hands on my head with my back to the class many, many of the class times. And she came to me, and she used to call me cat Fisher. My note, my surname was Fisher and the kids used to call me fat Fisher, because I had a weight problem as well. And that was another thing that was so humiliating, was standing there with my back to the class knowing that I had a big weight problem. And from that, and the treatment of other children, I developed this shocking fear of public humiliation. Which, which led me to where many masks?

Joel Kleber: 11:18

Yes, I'm really sorry to hear that. Yes, pretty bad, you know, abuse that it takes you would imagine, imagine someone doing that now, but I'm very sorry to hear that. But But what do you think? What? What if? What do you think carry would have helped you? Like, I know, it's a bit different now. But back then, what do you think would have helped you? Do you think, being involved in with the psychiatrists more regards to what was going on with your mom? Or do you think having some sort of external mentor? What do you think would have actually helped your the school actually taking the bullying seriously, what do you think would have helped you? Or in that situation? Gee, it's

Kerrie Atherton: 11:54

really hard to know, it's really hard to know, because I know these days now, we've got school counselors, guidance officers, chaplains. I was at a Catholic school. And as far as I knew, there was no support. I didn't know where to go for support, I'd go home, and I'd tell my parents, but I'd guess that there was so much going on in our family life, that it was just another thing, you know, so I hear this often. And I actually have been a school chaplain for six years. And I hear this often from kids that when their parents are struggling, they actually don't want to disclose that to their parents, because they feel like their parents have got enough going on. And they just want to make things worse. So, but I but I had a piano teacher at school, and I had weekly piano lessons. And I guess that was a little bit of that was just somebody that I felt cared for me in that time. And it sounds ridiculous. But having a piano lesson, or a piano teacher, made just such a massive difference in my life, because it was just one one space where I felt like I was safe for an hour. Yeah, but

Joel Kleber: 13:10

also I agree with you, I used to do guitar a lot. And the guitar was my escape. And I think you get the self esteem from you're progressing on piano and learning things, and you're getting positive reinforcement from the teacher. Yeah, that's a really powerful, a powerful thing is an instrument of any sort of situations.

Kerrie Atherton: 13:25

Yeah. And that, and in high school to the bullying got much worse. And I even had a teacher there present in the class when the whole class was bullying me. And it took one student stood up and told all the girls off in front of everyone, but the teacher did nothing. And there was no support there. So school was a terrifying place for me, as was getting on the bus in the morning to go to school. And I think that was where the despair set in when I'd wake up every morning. And I think I don't know how I'm gonna get through another day today.

Joel Kleber: 14:02

Well, the only place you can escape is your sleep. And then let's say if you have nightmares or something, you know, 24 hours, I had this conversation with a few people before especially the bullying part, that's a really big impact on people. And, you know, credit to you for getting through it, because some people don't. Thank you, Joel. And I want to talk to you now about your trauma counselor. Now, I think this is an important thing, because how did you obviously you've had a lot of trauma back in your life as well. So why did you go into that field? And maybe to talk about that, because I think you'll probably you'll be you're way more experienced and expert on this than me, but I think a lot of stuff that goes on in people's life currently, let's say if it's addictions or whatever, it can be all or majority of it linked to traumas. Right? We'll talk about that and your expertise in that area. Yeah. Well,

Kerrie Atherton: 14:49

I counsel a lot of people that are battling with addictions and obviously because I've been in the AAA program for you know, 40 years now. I haven't I met a person suffering with addictions that hasn't had trauma in their life. And but the difficult thing with addictions is that it also causes trauma. Yet we use it to escape from trauma. So it's a really really vicious vicious cycle. I've I've had probably suffered so many different traumas in my life. So there was the witnessing my mum being electrocuted. So witnessing the the terrible event, when I was nine, I was sexually molested by a pedophile on holidays. So the sexual abuse, I've been in domestic violence situation, and basically have lived my life in the freeze. So we hear a fight or flight, and then there's freeze or appease. So I've lived my life in the freeze position, and also in the appeasing. So the people pleasing, that was a place of safety for me. But trauma can happen to anyone, but it's, it's whether it's dealt with or not, in a significant brain time as to whether it's going to go on and have a big effect, you know, people can have a small tea, we talk about the big teeth and the small teas. And the small t traumas happen to us all every day. But for the person that doesn't deal with that, or hasn't had any other trauma in their life that can actually have a massive impact. Lots of clients that come to me now are people probably in their, you know, mid 40s. And every single one of those people come to me, and they don't know what at the time, but it's unresolved childhood trauma. And eventually, that trauma, it got it stays in here unless it's dealt with, and it will come out. It's just a matter of how, where and when. And so I guess my encouragement to anybody that feels like they're still they still have triggers or are still suffering from the trauma that they experienced, is to get it out somehow, whether that's journaling talking to someone speaking about it writing about it, well, that's journaling, isn't it? Getting help professional help to deal with that. Because otherwise, you stay trapped in the fight or flight or freeze. And we know with fight or flight cortisol just runs rampant through your body and then causes health problems. And so yet, it's really recognizing, and people will know that there's a problem because they will be triggered on the same things over and over again. Yeah. And it's, it's getting someone to help you identify and link that back to Okay, well, what's triggering me? And where does that come from?

Joel Kleber: 17:59

And how do you treat the root trauma? Or what are some methods that you would go fight? So for example, you sit down with someone and you go through it, and they disclose something to you? How would you? Obviously, it's a case by case dependent, but how what what are some things that that that people can do? Or how would you treat it?

Kerrie Atherton: 18:17

Well, I use cognitive behavior therapy. And that's really good with helping people to identify the physical emotion attached to when they are triggered. And too often, that's the first sign in our body that something's not right. And then going back and tracing, tracing that thought tracing, okay, what, why am I triggered tracing the core beliefs that they've held over their whole life, which we hold to protect ourselves, but their false beliefs that end up eating us? And then teaching and helping them to reframe a new story, or a perception that aids them in moving forward in a positive way?

Joel Kleber: 19:05

Okay, so the core beliefs things are big things. Like like you had a trauma, let's say, when you're younger as a kid. And then from then, as you said, people pleaser, whatever, you go through your whole life and get to 35 and 14, maybe you're not where you're are. How is the process to change that core belief? Is it something where it's just is it discussed? Or is it other things? Or how would you do it?

Kerrie Atherton: 19:26

Well, first, it's helping the client to identify what are your self defeating beliefs? Because a lot of people don't realize, I mean, you'll get a classic example of somebody it's a kid at school, that somebody says something about their mother or father and they go and punch a kid in the head. But their core belief is you never say anything about my family. And so it's it's getting that people to actually not understand or how can I help them find what their core beliefs are, and then bring them it's like bring In the life out of the cupboard type thing, and saying, Okay, well, how is this been serving you, you know, and pain is the greatest motivator of change. And often they come to me because the pains become so great in their life. And anger and sadness and fear are the three emotions that are really linked to these self defeating beliefs. And it's getting them to realize, okay, when do I feel the most anger? When do I feel the most sadness? When do I feel the most fearful and what thoughts are connected to that? And it sounds like a long time. But it takes 21 days to start to form a new thought. It takes an extra 21 days to while forming, keeping on forming a new thought to start to eradicate the old thought and another 21 days to actually rewire the pathway and get rid of that old thought totally. So 63 days. And when I say that to clients, 63 days of practicing their new belief whenever they're triggered, and they have that old tape playing, saying the new belief, it takes 63 days of practicing that. And when I say that, to them, they're like, oh, 63 days. And I'm like, Well, you think about it for 40 years, you've been thinking the same way, that that's just not going to change just like that. You need to develop a new thought and practice it until that becomes your new normal way of thinking about that situation.

Joel Kleber: 21:34

And what changes have you seen in people? How dramatic Have you seen someone's life improve from coming to you, to practicing what you've told them to actually where they are now?

Kerrie Atherton: 21:46

Miraculous, like, I just I have so many great reports from clients and things that used to bother them, you know, that, I guess the thing is, if the emotional responses over five out of 10 in a negative way, that's a level of concern. So with, you know, all my clients, I've been able to bring their emotional response when they're triggered, right down to maybe a three out of 10. And a three out of 10 is something that they'll probably give it a bit of a thought of the old way. And then I'm not Not that that's not even bothering me anymore. So a lot of freedom, you know, for parents to do that. You know, I've counseled a few men and women that have stayed in, especially women that have stayed in abusive relationships with their partners, and then their children, as their children are growing up. I really try and hold them accountable for the fact Well, why didn't you leave and the guilt, the guilt that those parents have felt around that is something that they've come to me with. And one lady after three sessions has heard the guilt just totally left. Because she was able to find a new perception that helped her think about that in a different way.

Joel Kleber: 23:09

And with the, um, and with, do you think that basically most people's problems can be linked back to a trauma or to childhood trauma? Is that from your experience? So?

Kerrie Atherton: 23:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. And then we all live through, you know, I don't know millions of events in our life. And we have 80,000 thoughts a day. And trauma. As I said, if it's not dealt with, it stays in here, it stays in us. And so you often get, you know, you people that that will have death in the family or something like that. And they don't feel that they can really grieve properly. For some reason, maybe it's because they have to keep up and operating. So our mind doesn't let us actually grieve properly unless we feel like we're in a secure enough state to do that. And so for that reason, you'll get people that may be may have a loss, and then they don't deal with the grief properly. And then they have another loss, and then they just collapse. And it's like vicarious trauma, they haven't dealt with the first one. So then when they have the second one, it hits them like a ton of bricks. And I mean, I know this to be true myself. My, just after I moved up to the Sunshine Coast, my mum got diagnosed with cancer. And then her brother who was her her half brother, that was six years older than me passed away suddenly, and a year later my mum died. And then my cousin died in a motorbike accident four months after that, and in the middle of that my daughter got married and she fell pregnant. And then my grandmother died and all my aunties and uncles my dad was diagnosed with last stages of emphysema had a massive car Our accident, my husband had a breakdown, I actually had to leave work because of workplace bullying. So all those traumas on top of each other, I didn't actually it was I felt like I was out in a king tide, just treading water. And every time I'd just try and take one stroke of the arm to get back to shore, I'd be smashed with another wave, and I felt like I was drowning out in the ocean. And that's what unresolved trauma does to people.

Joel Kleber: 25:28

And how did you deal with that? So you would have had your experience was that when all that stuff was happening, where you experienced the trauma castling yourself and all was this prior to that all?

Kerrie Atherton: 25:37

No, well, I started having counseling myself. And in the end, in the middle of all that I was actually working as a counselor. Okay, how was that? Sometimes it was therapeutic. Sometimes there'd be days when people would come to me, and it was would be something like a very thing that I was going through at the time. And I think, Oh, what have I got to give them you know, and I would find it so beneficial afterwards, because just by hearing them talk, it was actually a, and I'd give a bit of, I don't like to give advice, but I'd give some you know, maybe you could try this or this and then I'd dig our way or Yeah, listen to yourself, Carrie. But I, what I did was I started reading stories of people that had come out the other side of really hard times. Because what I was desperately searching for, and this is why I started stories of hope. I knew people my age that had lost one parent. But I didn't quit and my dad passed away six years ago now. But I didn't know people that had lost both parents. And they had gone through this significant losses, and the other situations that I'd been through. And it wasn't to say all poor me, you know, on the victim, I've got the worst life in the world. But I just desperately wanted somebody who understood the level of pain that I was going through, and I couldn't find anyone. And so I thought to be able to, you know, I was journaling, I was doing all the self care things myself, I was seeing a counselor, and my day ad doing this sober. So doing going through all this type of OPT of trauma, without alcohol or anything like that, where people usually use that to take the edge off. I was fly cause clinging on to a cliff base by my fingernails just trying to hang on. And so I started reading stories. And that started to build gradually build my hype up because I would read stories of people that had been through worse than me. And I think they've come out the other side, you know, when they found hope. And these were their strategies. And that started to build up in me the hope that I too could if it could happen for them, it could happen for me also

Joel Kleber: 27:57

start talking about the science behind it and stories of hope. And what and yeah, just sort of talked about a bit about what wavelengths are, they do talk about why you found it that what it's about what it does.

Kerrie Atherton: 28:09

So when I came to this situation in my life, this, I hit the rock bottom replay Dane, but then this was like another rock bottom after I'd lost, you know, all the family members above me and, and my husband had also been diagnosed with an illness. And he was very, very sick. And I really didn't know what the future was. And I went into a really dark tunnel, like I had like a second rock bottom. And I didn't know how it's going to come out. And so one of the signs to of people that are struggling with mental health is when they check out of their regular activities. And usually that's a time and I know that we're both mental health first day trainers. And usually that's time where people should check in with a person but because I'd been the person that was there for everyone else, everyone always had this perception that I was coping really well. And I hardly had a person contact me to see if I was okay in those six weeks. And that was a very soul destroying time because I felt all alone. And I dragged myself out and went to a women's conference and I heard three people get up and share their stories that coming out the other side of hard times. And it was right then I actually have my own light bulb moment where I thought well, I looked at everything that I'd come out of in my life. And I thought I have so many stories of hope to offer other people. And I'm also a real connector in the community and I knew so many people too that had been victorious over their situations as well and I thought if we can join together, we can create a place where people that were like me feeling like they're in the middle of a trigger trauma tsunami can Come, and they can actually find solace and find hope. And they can find connection. And so I started these monthly events for free for the community. And I had a man and a woman share their stories of coming out the other side of hard times, I used everyday people. But the one criteria really was that they had come out the other side, that they weren't still in a victim mode, and that they actually had been victorious over their situation. And that ran for five, for four and a half years until COVID. struck. And out of that came to mobile two books, there was this volume one stories of hope, Australia, and this is volume two. And in both of these books, I share my story of addictions in the first one and my story of overcoming grief in the second one. And I have the stories of six men and six women in each book. And then when COVID hit, we couldn't meet any more. And the one thing that had been really pivotal in in helping me move forward and move out of my pain was having a purpose. And you often hear this, you know, it's a purpose and connection are the two things that are really vital for somebody who's struggling with mental health. And so I've lost my purpose, and I really hit the wall again. And I actually was thinking about drinking, because I didn't know this time how I could pull myself out without my purpose, and also desperately missing my family, my son and my brothers in Sydney. And so I started to find people on through LinkedIn and Facebook that had come out the other side of hard times, and that I felt were really resilient. And I started interviewing people from around the world. And I started sharing their stories, you know, on Facebook and everything so that other people in the world that felt really down and felt like they couldn't get through another day could be encouraged as well. And then, in light of our men's mental health crisis, which was worsening through COVID, and up here on the Sunshine Coast, where I live, the suicide rate was 9%, above the national average, I decided to dedicate this book to the men of this world. And I have a variety of ages from the age of 20 to 80. And they're 15 men who have been through all different things. But they all have a story of hope and victory to tell.

Joel Kleber: 32:35

That's fantastic. Before we go back to that we're going to talk about the griefs. Yes, grief, I think is something I guess the last week he lost his mum to suicide, which is not, which is a very traumatic thing in the grief. I don't think we talk enough about grief in general, I think we go to a funeral, then people think you're over it three days later, or a week later. And that's it. People don't have to deal with it, but on how to process it. And it can be very long term. From my understanding. So let's talk about grief, great strategies, or some things that you found helped you?

Kerrie Atherton: 33:06

Yeah, no, firstly, just want to say to you know, whenever I put a post up about grief, it's it doesn't get a lot of interaction. People are scared of that word. Yet. It's something that we as humans we face every day when a relationship breaks down. There's grief. So people often put grief with death. But there's grief over so many different things in life, loss of a job, loss of a relationship, uncertainty about tomorrow, loss of finances. And so I think if people can start to get a greater understanding that we walk through grief every day, and when it happens, we need to find a way to deal with it because that grief for grief turns into trauma. So some of the things that were strategies for me personally was you know, I've got a faith I spent a lot of time praying, reading uplifting books. Even something like burning a candle that smells nice. That became something that appealed to my senses that made me feel good. Even, you know, just drinking coffee and sitting there and really thinking about the coffee and enjoying every mouthful. gratitude. Gratitude became very big for me. After watching my mom in the palliative care ward for a year, that's how I learned about gratitude. I was in the hospital one day and I desperately needed sleep and just being able to find a cushion on the lounge and close my eyes for half an hour. I just became so grateful for that cushion and I attend intentionally started to look for things to be grateful for because I was in such a terrible journey. And I thought I need to look for whatever I can that's positive in this time. Because when we go through hard times, we can either do it the journey very badly, or we can do it well. So gratitude became a massive part of my healing journey. And exercise was so vital for me. And I'm not you know, I don't do the gym and everything. But that's really great for a lot of guys find that really helpful. But I walked by the beach, and I would sit and I'd stare at the ocean, staring at the color blue, and we both got blue on today actually does something amazing for the soul and staring at the color blue is very healing, it releases endorphins into our body, which makes us feel good. eating the right food, when we're not eating the right food, it really impacts the way we think, getting enough sleep. So a lot of these things are just and journaling was massive. So whatever I could to get pain out. And whatever I could find that appealed to my five senses, that was positive. I would do that. And I stayed away from sad music. Okay, awesome. And it's really interesting, because often, there's this fad at the moment, or it's moved to the 80s now, but six months ago, every restaurant, you went to his playing 70s music, okay. And that was the most the time when I had the deepest depression, and I can't listen to 70s music, and I would literally be screaming to get out of the restaurant. So there's an example of when a trigger hits, I'd have to talk to myself and give myself a new perception. But staying away from things that you know, are going to trigger you to knowing your triggers, and then avoiding those things, if you can.

Joel Kleber: 36:56

That's some good advice that I was going to go into your stories of hope through volume three, what are some common things or common threads that you found out when you're doing the interviews for for the book series that, um, that were, let's say interesting to you, or things that maybe we should pay attention to more because you did mention this the increased suicide rate up in your area? Yeah. And my second question was, Do you think that's more because I want to put a stereotype on people but like, you know, more more macho, a sort of blokes up in that area, let's say, pose to other areas of the country? Or why do you think that was?

Kerrie Atherton: 37:31

Yeah, there's been a lot of study up here on the Sunshine Coast. And it's been thought that there's a link to trauma, and post traumatic stress, in particular, through the DNA of returned soldiers. So, so their children have a genetic disposition to post traumatic stress, because we had a lot of younger suicides up here of, particularly of men of boys, you know, will like men 16, to 20, or whatever. But the common thread, I think, and my whole purpose for the book was that as a counselor, I see and help people mop up the pain of the past. And often people don't seek help, especially guys, until the crap has really hit the fan. And until life is a real mess. And there's so many situations where I have people sitting there before me that are so broken, and I think, wow, you know, if only you'd sought help earlier, your life could be very different. And there wouldn't be as much pain to try and move past. And so I guess the common thread for me was because in everything I do, it's all about suicide prevention. So I see myself as an interventionist, and everything that I've ever done is for early intervention and prevention, and I see this book as an early intervention tool, because what I asked the guys to do was to be raw and real. And they've really laid themselves emotionally bare on the pages. And that is to show other men that it's okay to share how you feel. And while other guys often don't reach out for a chat or anything like that, if they can read the stories of people that are expressing their emotions. They'll be able to identify with that in a non threatening way. But a lot of these guys did things that they regretted as well. So some of the guys in the book, Life happened to them. And then the others. Well, life happened, but then they made poor decisions. One guy is Australia's most notorious bank robber, he's in the book, John killing, and his girlfriend hijacked a helicopter and landed on the roof of maximum security, prison and broke. Yeah, so he's in the book. And the thing that really struck me about his story, when I read the story, I cried, because he had the saddest start to life, you know, he was a good kid. But then he lived with a violent alcoholic father, and his mum suicided, when he was 17. And then he went out on the streets, because he didn't want to live with his dad. And then an older guy tried to sexually assault him or within 24 hour period. And so for survival, he started stealing to get money for food, his life just went on from there. So at the age of 80, he's message now is that it's not too late to give back. And I just love that you know, that somebody that's in the much later part of their life is still been able to find a purpose and to be able to give back and send a message to all the younger guys that there is there's redemption, after poor choices, their second chances.

Joel Kleber: 41:11

And what do you think, can be done from a work like mental health awareness is a thing now it's very well known, but I don't think mental health awareness is a thing, obviously now. But it's, I think it's very surface level, still trying to get the bloke who will see maybe an ad or whatever it is, or see something, but to get into take action, as you would know, is very, very hard. What things are, what else can be done to try and help more people or more men especially take actually action and make a contact? Because that seems to be the hardest thing is actually in Melbourne, you have to go to a GP to get a referral to go to a site? And actually, that can be very hard for people just to do it in itself? Yeah. What do you think can be done to try and get more men to stop just looking in thinking about it and actually start taking action and doing?

Kerrie Atherton: 42:01

Well, I think, look, I think awareness, you know, I was giving a lot of thought to this week, because I saw, you know, the questions came through. I think the media lets men down big time, because it doesn't show all aspects of a man. It just shows, you know, the, the rough and tough, I think that doesn't show enough, the emotional and gentle side of a guy, you know, and something if any men are listening out there, you know, their perception might be that women want the big macho man, you know, but often, a lot of women I talked to they want the the guy that is kind and in touch with their emotions. And so I think I think it's going to be on all of us. There needs to be more awareness out there. And then we have apps that guys can go to if they don't want to talk to someone. But the studies show too, that the intervention or somebody's checking up on a guy that was suicidal, has a massive impact on them not taking that action. So connection is sorry, my battery's about connection is massive, and the person that's struggling often won't go out and find the connection themselves. So I really think that this awareness has to be massive in community, I think more people need to do courses, like the mental health first aid course. Because the more of us in society that are aware of the signs, the more of us are going to reach out to the person next door, the person across the road, the person in our office where we might not have before. And the more people doing that, you know, if we have doubled the amount of people checking in on other people chances are, that person at least knows someone cares about them enough. And they don't feel alone. And also they might go and get help. Then

Joel Kleber: 44:01

from a government perspective, there's obviously a lot of money getting poured in at state and federal level, because they want to promote it because it's something obviously that's important to a lot of people. So they're going to promote that they're doing something about it. Where do you think the funding can go or should start going?

Kerrie Atherton: 44:17

On the ground workers, this is the thing, you know, they keep throwing money at it and putting it in this mental health bucket. But like, I don't, I haven't seen any of it. I'm on the ground work. I'm a counselor, we don't get any government funding like psychologists or social workers doing and we our work is just as hard you know, we don't maybe haven't studied for the textbook as much but most of the counselors are long term lived experience people which has a massive impact and benefit for people that are struggling. I really don't know what the government's doing with the money. There's a lot of money and this is about mental health, but nothing's actually They've been put into pools to actually the programs and stuff like that to actually address the underlying problems. And we need to address the underlying problems and for men, their relationship breakdown by natural problems. They're the two massive triggers for guys for checking out.

Joel Kleber: 45:22

And but the thing is, you're not taught that at school, right? So you never taught financial literacy, or basic, you know, you said relationship skills at audit at a school level. So what do you think could be done in regards to a funding from that level? Do you think more financial counseling support or more, more just free counseling? And what would what would you like to say?

Kerrie Atherton: 45:42

I'd love to see the government supporting counselors to be able to see people I've had so many people contact me and say, do you do the mental health plan, and they are specifically, often middle aged guys who are struggling with addictions? Because the men substance abuse disorders is the highest form of mental health problems in Australia. And they come to me and I'm like, I'm sorry, I can't access the mental health plan.

Joel Kleber: 46:10

So why is that the case is just because you need to be a quite qualified psychologist, or what's the point? Was it because

Kerrie Atherton: 46:16

we got the way the government set it up? They don't they have up to this point, they haven't given any credence to lived experience workers haven't

Joel Kleber: 46:24

not just don't want the they don't want to ask me for like 6.5 million for something. But that's really it can add a billion, I think billions of dollars, whatever they're doing, there's like 6.5 million was allocated towards that experience panel or something that I saw.

Kerrie Atherton: 46:39

Yeah. And so there's, if the council is that were reached out to were available, and able to do the mental health plan, you would have tripled the amount of people getting support

Joel Kleber: 46:52

will make sense, because there's a massive shortage of psychologists that you can't, people cannot get into one. And yet, then if they've got to go to a counselor can't get the mental health plan, they might not be financially able to afford it. So then they're stuck. And you know, they might rely on a hotline, which then refers them, you know, the one although a lot of the major hotlines, a referral services to someone who might be busy as well. So it's a bit of a problem.

Kerrie Atherton: 47:13

Well, you know, you can get into, I actually had a guy come to me who's had a marriage breakdown, and really on the edge. And he said to me, I'm glad that I've found somebody that's got some lived experience, and that I wasn't just sent to some 22 year old psychologist who knew nothing about life. People can get into psychologists that have just come out of uni. But if they're really struggling with a myriad of deep psychological problems and traumas, I think the best people for them are going to be counselors, or psychologists who have actually got lived experience in life

Joel Kleber: 48:01

are great, because there's an instant respect between you two, you know, you know, if you don't know if they're gonna say 23 year old, 22 year old who doesn't know, who hasn't had any real adversity that you know, off, there's no, there's instantly you're not going to have that same level of respect as they would for someone like yourself.

Kerrie Atherton: 48:17

Yeah. So I think you know, that, I think, also, I can't tell you, I've actually reached out a few times to different people in my community and organizations about funding me to run a mental health first aid program for the community. Never any support.

Joel Kleber: 48:37

Unfortunately, a lot of the organizations don't share their funding at all. I've heard this common thing from lady who runs bipolar Australia, when she reached out to beyondblue because they refer a lot of people to her yet they gave her no time of day, unfortunately, seems to be that the big, big organizations or brands suck up everything. I think I know it is. So these days.

Kerrie Atherton: 48:59

Yeah, let's let's just say it right now. Yeah,

Joel Kleber: 49:02

I think I like your south side a lot on line side. So that's true, and they don't share the love and then basically, you know, was like I give an example like your your intervention with suicide, right? Whereas beyondblue for example, says we are suicide prevention as well. But someone who's on the ground person like yourself, who has people who you're helping with, you can't get any funding. It's crazy and I think you're a better service to us you then a hotline, PB on blue, but they're just gonna refer you to someone anyone? Thank you, Joe. But it upside it doesn't make any sense.

Kerrie Atherton: 49:35

I know. And that's Look, I guess that's why I wrote the books because I thought, well, if if I can't get people to actually, if they can't come to me, and I don't charge heaps, you know, but at least the book is is 25 bucks. That's got heaps of stories, it's helped going out. And, you know, a lot of stories in a book can make a massive impact on one person. So that, I thought that's one way that I can actually share what's going on with stories of hope. And people can get a piece of what, you know, the magic that happens in the room and the hope without having to invest much money, and I've probably given away more books, and I've sold

Joel Kleber: 50:18

you, but that's your purpose. You know, imagine everyone needs a purpose. And you're right you want to you and that's your purpose, right? And that's what's giving you fulfillment. And you're doing a good deed, you know, you're making the world a better place, or you're doing what you know, you're doing what you can in regards to that, right? Not a lot of people do that, where they have money, motivation, or whatever it is. But you're you've actually got purpose, which is, which is the key.

Kerrie Atherton: 50:39

Yeah, I've got purpose and people, people motivation. And, look, I've done a lot of extensive work with the homeless.

Joel Kleber: 50:46

Yeah, I read I remember reading that in your bio. Yes, that's six years or something you've been last year we

Kerrie Atherton: 50:51

yeah, we did that for six years. And so I guess I've, I've seen people that, that they're there, and people that have come in and out of jail and stuff. I've seen people and work with people that are as low as they've come to the lowest point that you can ever go in life. And often, they don't have the money to actually pay for anything, let alone an appointment. When I'm sick. I've always you know, I've never turned anyone away that needs help. Because people's lives are so important to me, because I've suffered so much myself, you know, I know what, what, what that's like, and if I can help it, I don't want anybody that I come across ever check out because they feel like no one cares. And so it's a very personal passion of mine, that everybody feels like they belong somewhere.

Joel Kleber: 51:45

That's great. And the nice thing to me is that people will obviously those people, people very judgmental, right, you know, you've been to jail or someone's got an addiction or whatever, they don't have it understand what what made that person that way. So then when they learn about the event, or whatever it is, they then have an empathy of this person, but we're too surface level, we just judge people, you know, that person's got maybe, you know, whatever it is. And as you would know, from your experience, there's so much more to people beyond the surface level stuff that we judge them.

Kerrie Atherton: 52:13

So true. And I think there's so much still so much stigma attached to people with addictions. And you just said there is absolutely no way. I mean, we're saying all these things on Facebook now, you know, all these people that have been drug addicts and their pictures and how they are now and everything. But I think for the person that's not an addict or alcoholic or hasn't been in that space, they still, there's still a big level of judgment towards those of us who have

Joel Kleber: 52:42

so lack of empathy and EQ. That's what it comes down to, you know, a lot of people who pass judgment and they've got no EQ, empathy, and maybe haven't had really much adversity in their own circumstances.

Kerrie Atherton: 52:53

Yeah. And I think, you know, the people that have really struggled and been hit rock bottom, they're the people that can really make a difference, a massive difference in other people's lives, you know, because they've had the lived experience of, of hitting rock bottom, and they've got the massive story of hope to tell.

Joel Kleber: 53:14

Absolutely. So don't maybe talk about where can people find out more about how you carry in your book and what you do?

Kerrie Atherton: 53:21

Yes, so if you had to w w w dot stories of hope.com.au. That's all about my stories of hope. And I also have a website for my counseling and speaking, w w w dot M power life. solutions.com.au

Joel Kleber: 53:40

Awesome. Carrie, I'll put the links into the description. Thank you very much for your time today. I really appreciate all your insights and how open and honest and transparent you've been. Good luck is what you do. It's fantastic that you know, you've obviously give back and you're doing something really beneficial for a lot of people in your community. So well done. And I'm Thank you very much for your time here. I really appreciate it.

Kerrie Atherton: 54:00

Thanks heaps, Joel