Bill Campos: 0:03

Yeah. So um, I'll start from the beginning and just explain a little bit about what really intrigued me about a recent LinkedIn post, I've seen a view, which was, obviously you reached out to your father, about, obviously the kind of background that you have, but more importantly, that you feel the need to actually reach out to dad. So I was I was not only intrigued, but also I think it's a really important story to tell, because I think, as a psychologist, one, we talk a lot with people about stuff that happened in their childhood. And now I want to kind of resolve or come to a point of resolution, one of the biggest stumbling blocks is usually going back to the person that obviously has been absent from the last recorded number time or for whatever reason, that relationship sort of severed. And going back to that, and having some closure is probably a huge step for a number of people to go understand and take the steps as to why it's beneficial for them to do it. So when I saw that you did and we had a brief discussion previously, I was really curious and intrigued to just find out more. So do you want to give a little bit of a summary about where you are to and what kind of happened? Because I know you've spoken briefly in already in some of your posts, but just for the sake of this interview,

Joel Kleber: 1:23

sure. Yeah, no, no. So basically, you know how to come from my head and mum, mum has bipolar disorder, one really great mom and her younger sister as well. And we did have a dad for a while so but we're living in between, I think Melbourne, then, you know, he had issues I think he went to he was in jail for a little bit for financial sort of thing. It wasn't a bad crime. So is at a very low level prison, but he couldn't get that job over in Melbourne, had to move to Perth. And the problem with that is that my mum was one of 11. And she had all her brothers and sisters in horrible. And when they went to Perth, she had no support, no nothing. So yeah, he was over there. And he had to get a job there. And he got a job there. And then within very, I think a year or two, the company ended up shut down. He's electronics communications engineer. So he couldn't really get a job in what he wants to do in Perth. So he then took up a job with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia working for the king putting up the GSM network. So all the mobile networks in Saudi Arabia back in the day over there for that project, and it's really, really good money. We're talking like, you know, six figures back in 1992 or 93. It really good money. And, but the downside of that was he was only allowed to come back two weeks a year because Saudi Arabia, you cannot easily get a visa visa out and that sort of stuff. So that he only got two weeks of holidays a year. So he went off and, and the problem with that was that um, mums that left her own sort of parenting so you know, she's single parent, front of the car for two kids plus manage her condition. And she was trying to work on an orphan. Because, you know, he was good with providing a lot of money. But one of the bad things you could do if my mom was give her money because you just spend it frivolously and all these silly things. So whilst he was working over in Saudi Arabia, she was pretty much just left to her own devices with no one checking on her behavior. There's no family, no nothing. So she was pretty much just allowed to run free rein, and she was good for a while because she was pretty, pretty stable back then. But then she got unwell. She got really really unwell. So remember, there's a time that was the first time she probably got she would have gotten unwell a few times before, I remember but the one time, you know, went to school one day, she's dropped us off, and then accidentally that the police are grabbing us out of the classroom to go to the principal's office and saying your mom's in hospital because you know, you get to go to this place, or whatever it is. So back to the DVR. And you go to the local Human Services office at this shopping center in Perth called Mira book, which is not a nice place and in a room and there's some old guy there. And he basically being told, you know, they're just trying to find your accommodation, because mom's not well, so yeah, then you sort of instantly think Well, where's you know, where's Dad was? Where's he and all that sort of stuff. And he's overseas and then your job? I think that that was like six or seven. That was the first one I remember. But it happened before that it happened a few times before that, but I can't remember that too much. There's one I can remember six or seven. And then he wouldn't come back because he had his good job. He was earning good money. Yeah, he had his responsibilities. So but he wouldn't come back. So then he just let us go into foster care. So when foster care and had no idea of what was really going on, so we're in there and then you go to school one day, everything's normal and hunky dory them at the end of the school day, during some strange lady's house in a suburban house. You don't know. So

Bill Campos: 4:37

if you don't mind me asking a few questions. It never went from Perth back to Melbourne considering that your father now has gone to Saudi Arabia because your mom's family is all in Melbourne sat right.

Joel Kleber: 4:49

There all morning. Well, yeah. Which is like 240 Ks, west of Melbourne. I think the new year this is the thing. I don't think they knew anything. It's sort of interesting because Yeah, I don't think they knew at all. So my mom was very close with her mom and some of their brothers and sisters. And I don't think they knew anything. So I didn't even bother, or no one even bothered to call. So that's what I've been told. Yeah, so now one from human services or whoever it was, or even him bother to call her mom or her family. So that, you know, is what I've been told so, and you

Bill Campos: 5:24

have a younger sister, so you're This happened when you're six or seven. So your sister would have been

Joel Kleber: 5:28

what? She's, she's what I must. Yeah, younger than me. So she's should have been six or five. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So, yeah, then we'll take into this lady's house. And then that was it. So that was it, no real context and anything at all. And it's sort of very confusing. You think we're worried? Why Why don't you just give them a plan to come back? But yeah, reality is he couldn't, because where he was, and also, you know, there's a mortgage and stuff like that, and he wants to keep the house. So we have to stay over there, which is what I realize now, but at the time, was very hard to know. And the annoying thing as well was that no one told her mom or a family, so they would have been able to help you know, there's 11 Living sisters. Sorry, 10 brothers and sisters and her mom and her dad at the time. So um, yeah, they had no knowledge of it.

Bill Campos: 6:13

Did they ever reach out like, your mother's family? To see how you doin in Perth? Because what was the timeframe between when that first happened that episode where you need stated at someone's house, and then until you next saw your either your dad or your mother's family?

Joel Kleber: 6:28

Well, we didn't move back to I think we went to one will like once or twice this was her mum was was well, but I had no idea what was going on. So naughty, she'd been the hospital, that sort of stuff. And I think that was what everyone were like, 10 or something. And then I didn't know anything about it. And then we ended up doing a permanent move, then we'll third aim, because her mother said, you know, she needs help this, you know, she can't keep going on like this. And you know, we can't keep having the kids go to these situations if something happens. So we ended up paying for my mom's brother of basically for us to move over. So um, yeah, my mom and dad separated, like, I think I was like 13, we'll just when I turned 30 And I separated, but they were separated for like eight years, essentially, because he was over in Saudi Arabia, and he come back two weeks of the year, and when he come back, because she hasn't seen him for 50 weeks, they'll just be fine. And then we lose a lot of dramas and all that sort of stuff. So it's sort of put in a way that he was not there. But it was very hard to take him because, you know, you think this person is supposed to be a, you know, your protector or your father and he just chooses to stay to stay away. Know, what's happening at home.

Bill Campos: 7:35

And so you when you move back to 13, back to Toria. Your sign grandparents started to be aware that there was more issues happening for your mother than just the relationship. There's also other things happening for her.

Joel Kleber: 7:48

Yeah, well, I think what happened was her father ended up passing away in a very tragic, tragic event. Actually, he had all this arthritis and stuff and he was a smoker and he was left on the porch with a big blanket on him and he dropped a smoker moon went up in flames. It was like there's like national news. So that was the impetus. That was the impetus for mom to get really really unwell. So she went back to saving and she got on well, and I think it was decided by the family then hey, we can't keep having the kids and stuff with what's going on with here. And then yeah, basically, my grandmother sent me one of my mom's brothers across Dennis is a really good fella. And he ended up basically chucked out all of our belongings really, and put everything in a Tod Camry and drove over there. I don't think there's much else besides that there might have been like one container or something that came over but basically when we moved from Perth to Warren within like three days, we drove across the Nullarbor all that sort of stuff. So, yeah, it was pretty, it's pretty nice. Get them back over and that was it. So

Bill Campos: 8:44

and that meant that you were right at high school age. So yeah,

Joel Kleber: 8:48

I just started high school. I was in high school. Yeah. So I was in high school then the next day not in high school and traveling across to a new a new town. So yeah, so pretty much happened.

Bill Campos: 8:56

And did you after when you third and you moved back to Victoria? I'm assuming obviously you're much more connected with your mother's family.

Joel Kleber: 9:05

I wasn't really at the start because I didn't even really know um, see well, I met him once I met him I met him once when we came over for some accountability event was what became a Christmas one year and they always did like a big family photo and stuff but not really like we had maybe one or two cousins come over to stay with us once in Perth but that was I didn't really have much knowledge at all at all it's probably the second time that most of them when I when I was

Bill Campos: 9:27

over there and since moving there and conversely for 13 in other how long you stayed there. Did that ratio become stronger with your mother's family or

Joel Kleber: 9:38

Yeah, absolutely. Yep. So Mama, they're really good people are often really good people so um, we actually I had I had a three first cousins mid level at school which is cool so now will very close so there was like, it's like 50/51 cousins in most of them. Were living at one at a time. But um, yeah, they were very close, you know? Because when Mom will get sick We would go over I would live with all that. So that was auntie and uncle live with another auntie and uncle and stuff like that, or did my grandmother so when mom got on? Well, that was the main reason why they brought us over is that when she went on Well, they didn't want us. least they could look after us, whereas before, was just random families and, and friends and foster families and stuff like that. So that was a reason for coming out through really.

Bill Campos: 10:21

And you stay out.

Unknown: 10:22

It's a wonderful, yes. Wonderful. Yeah.

Bill Campos: 10:24

Until how old?

Unknown: 10:26

I was there. Was there 2324 Okay, I did. Yeah, sorry. I

Bill Campos: 10:30

got I got,

Joel Kleber: 10:31

I was gonna say it's hard to leave. So my younger sister left very essentially, could she just left because she didn't like her mom or whatever. So she got out of there. But for me, I felt really guilty and leaving, so it's hard for me to leave, I wanted to leave earlier, but I just had no real direction. So um, I eventually ended up leaving, but it was very hard.

Bill Campos: 10:48

And between 13 and 23, because obviously, there was a time you were at that at that area within Victoria. Did you keep in touch with that? We did?

Joel Kleber: 10:56

Um, not really, no, no, I think maybe there was one time one time he tried to email me or something or my mom was still upset. My mom was still really, you know, really lovely to say she always try and call them and stuff and he wasn't given a much back and he might call once or twice a month to talk to him. And I wouldn't talk to him. Anyone is endorsing? So nothing really at all.

Bill Campos: 11:17

So knowing that kind of background, then recently you reached out to him. What What prompted you to do that? Because you reached out through in this time? Is that right?

Joel Kleber: 11:27

Yeah, I started making contact with him when I'm when my mom got really sick. So she got terminal. I messaged him about it. And just said to him, Look, she's Baba Baba. And I sort of thought I was sort of, there's almost like a, you know, pasting almost in a way just saying, you know, I was sort of testing away, I want him to actually come over, this was your, the lady who left with us, and you know, who you still say you care about, and the kids, you should make the effort to come Oh, she's terminal. Now. She might have six months, five months, whatever, make the effort and come over, but you end up and I said, you know, and I was really frustrated. And I said, you know, I'll pay for you to come over if you want. But he didn't tell you that offer up? Yeah, so he didn't do it, but which is very, very disappointing. But um, that was the impetus when manga terminal, I started sort of just reaching out to him a bit. And then after mum passed away, then I started, you know, wovember, one parent now. So I need to do some, I need to do something about it and a lot of assets that I don't have. So the overwhelming questions or answers to those questions is to actually ask them, and I'm not going to get them from being negative and aggressive to someone. So I've got to make sure I'm cool, calm and collected. And just try and try and look at look at the person for who they are. And I'm trying to start understanding if I if I, if I just kept on for the anger and resentment and the hate I had for him, I would not have any of the answers I have. And it'd be a far more different person to what I am at the moment because I find myself a lot more calmer and stuff as well, I feel a lot more answers got a lot more complete understanding. Whereas before I had no understanding of his side of the family or reasons why he did what he did. So I had all this resentment and anger for like, you know, 33 years, 3034 years, built up towards this one person and it eats away. Yeah. So it was more as well a selfish thing to get rid of that.

Bill Campos: 13:15

Or my question then is how did you manage that? Because that's probably what I find a lot with people is that that's the hardest stumbling block when you have all this buildup of emotion for so many years and so much anger and resentment, as you mentioned. That for people to actually breach that it's more painful than it is to actually, you know, see what the outcome of that connection with the person that you missed for so long. What brought you to have that, and I'm using terms that I really wish but the courage, I guess it's a courage, because I'm assuming a lot of people will be saying, You don't need to worry about it. It's nothing that you should be investing time and energy on. So what brought like, how did you manage those emotions? That's the first question. The second thing is, at what point did you feel as if Okay, now I understand or I started to get some resolution about all these emotions that I'm holding in

Joel Kleber: 14:10

there. Well, the way I manage them initially was I just wrote to him I couldn't I couldn't speak to him because I never speak to him. Initially. I just go real aggressive and, and different and wasn't very nice. And as I found out once I started writing some got some questions to answer. He gave me some really detailed replies to be fair, so I asked him a question. It gave me like a real long, wrong reply. So I asked him a few things. I thought they were genuine. So um, you know, and then I started, you know, maybe texting and I started calling him slowly and stuff like that. And I thought the thing with this was when I started reaching out to these expectations about you know, he's going to be bringing me every week and being proactive and stuff like that, but she didn't do which I wanted him to do but she didn't do it. I literally I literally had to tell him, I said to him, I want you to do this. I want you to do this. I want you to do this and he did it. So that's what started happening. So I had to start realizing like I was To the more mature person in this situation, even though he's 77, I had to realize I had emotionally and mature at maturity wise in regards to this, he was, he's not that mature at all, he doesn't know, he doesn't have the emotional intelligence at all really to be able to deal with this situation. So then I thought, well, I've got to take the lead in this sort of thing. And if I want to have a good outcome of this, I'm going to take the lead and sort of just not not react to it. And that was hard. It was hard to not react to a lot of things, you know, when you hear you hear a few excuses and different things like that, because I'm not a father or anything. But I sort of think, you know, if I was a father, I would, I would not be doing what he did. I just don't see how it's justified. But having chats with him and different things like that I understand his position. I don't I don't, I don't judge the position, I'm still and then also, I have no benefit from anger, like, what does anger, what does he do to you as a person, it always gnaws away you in the back of their head. And then when my mum passed away, is a very tough emotional time. But for whatever that reason was, when I just sort of decided, look, I forgive him, that's it done, I don't care, whatever else happened, I literally just put a line in the sand in my head, mentally, instead of just forgive him not not going to hold this against him anymore. And let's just move on. Because, you know, time goes like this. And you've got all this stuff here. And it's going to keep going like that. And you're still stuck here. So I wanted to, I just wanted to get rid of that. That thing that just kept pulling me back in a way and look at my sound and look at everyone in their life has got someone where this is, this is maybe happening suicide with a friend or a family member or whatever. And it just takes a bit of bit of what just takes proactive, based on being proactive from from there, just one person being proactive. One person, just put disciple the line in the sand and reach out. And most of the time, from what I know, it's always been a positive experience and people's always regret not doing it sooner. So hopefully that answers your question.

Bill Campos: 16:53

It does. And I appreciate you being very frank and honest. And I'm gonna ask a few questions. Let me know if it's too personal. I'd be keen to know a little bit about what sort of questions you did ask your father after so much so many years of absence. And you know, they'll kind of build up a resentment. You know, what was some of the questions that you really wanted to ask him?

Joel Kleber: 17:11

Well, I sort of did a history. So I have I've got a really deep I know my mom's history really well, you guys did her family and stuff. And her grant her father had bipolar, she's got a few says bipolar. So I know that sort of side of it. I want to know more for myself as well. You know, when I started in a family and stuff, I need to know these things. And with him, I was more like, you know, where are you? Where are you actually born because you have a birth certificate from Zagreb, Croatia, and Vienna, Austria. So where we actually born and what was your history? What was your job? And he went through right through and it's very, very interesting. So um, you know, I don't even I had an auntie in Germany. I've still got an auntie in Germany. He's 85, in Nuremberg. And he's got a couple of he's got a daughter that I didn't know about. But he's got like a, I've got a half sister, who lives lives in Melbourne socialism, Sorento. But um, yeah, so finding out about family history, things like that. Asked about history about, you know, why did you go to jail? Do you understand? So all this sort of thing? And then and then it was basically the nitty gritty stuff, you know, like, why did you leave us? Why don't you just leave your job and come back? You know, I would have worked at McDonald's and done whatever to come and bathe my kids. Why did you do that? Why did you not explain things properly? All those sorts of things. So those, those questions that I had a bit burning for me, I gave to him. And that that I had to do it in writing. And then if again, in writing, he gave him more time, because if I tried to ask him on the phone, he's English, he's like his fourth language or third language, so he wouldn't be able to explain it properly. But when I gave him time to write it down, I've got a lot of good stuff. He sent me a lot of like, you know, proof as well of different newspaper clippings from his company, and all these different things. So just to get a bit of a history about him. So I had no idea didn't know what was truthful or what was not. And then, and then also, just the reasons why he did what he did. I just as I said, I can't I found it hard to reconcile with, but um, you know, when you hear Look, when I got it in paper from his side, and with everything that happened, I can sort of understand it. Because that moment where that moment when he didn't decide to come back or whatever, there's, there's a whole life he's had before that coming up to that which is made in that way. So once I understood those facts, and what happened to him, and, you know, he was born in 1945, at the end of World War Two in in Zagreb. So that was part of all that area, then at the time, gaming community. So, you know, there was a lot of things going on back then. Especially growing up. So hearing some of these stories and stuff, I sort of thought, Well, no wonder you're a bit emotionally stunted and stuff because of what's happened. So sort of gave me more empathy. When asked once I knew his history and more understanding of what he did.

Bill Campos: 19:37

And the process of when he got back to, like, got in touch with him and stop sending emails. What how long was that? Like? I'm assuming there's been quite a lot

Joel Kleber: 19:45

of Yeah, it was like, it was like, it was long time. It's fine. As long as there's like a couple of years. Yeah, it was a couple of years. So I would read it and I wouldn't reply, then maybe six months later, I'd go back. So it was a long, long time. It wasn't, it wasn't like every week or something like that. So

Bill Campos: 20:01

And did the answers that given you? Obviously, some of the answers allowed you to understand a little bit more about him as a person. But the question about when potentially, when you probably needed your dad more than any other times when your mother was unwell in Perth, he gave me some answers that gave some context to why he might not have been there.

Joel Kleber: 20:23

I think it was more, it was more financial stuff. So you know, obviously, he just bought a house and it was a car payment and stuff and had to provide money for us kids and stuff. But, you know, that was his that was excuse. But as I said, you know, to him, I didn't really care, but that sort of stuff, you know, you could have come back and done whatever job to be honest, I just don't think he wanted to go and stoop to something he didn't maybe thought he was overqualified to do. So yeah, that I sort of dis I still disagree with him on on that. But um, and look, he's told me recently, anyway, that he regret regretted going to Saudi Arabia. So I sort of take that as half an apology. But I'm sort of getting things after he was good in a way because it's lessons that I that I can learn and what not to do. So.

Bill Campos: 21:07

And, and you did talk that you have your sister, obviously, was she involved in any of this in terms of her process or understanding or knowing that you're engaging or connecting with him?

Joel Kleber: 21:16

Yeah, we did it separately. So we didn't share it by way of a relationship with him than me. So it's sort of gone opposite now. So um, yeah, so it's a bit of a thing he doesn't have a good relationship with with either pizza is other store and and non existent. Really? So at the moment, those two Yeah, with me, he does with the other two dozen.

Bill Campos: 21:34

You sign that she he used to have a better relationship with your sister than he does? Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So she kept in touch with him at all. Yeah, she

Joel Kleber: 21:43

did. Yeah. So she, she always had, she was always a lot more closer to him than what I was. So I was always the mums favourite. She was also always my dad's favorite. So that was, that was why but it's sort of it's sort of flipped at the moment. So it's been interesting in the moment. Yeah.

Bill Campos: 21:57

Have you had a chance to talk to your sister a little bit about this, what you found out about your dad and understanding a little bit about your family history,

Joel Kleber: 22:03

um, a little bit, she told me a little, a little bit of things. But it's not something I really went out of my way to talk to her about when when my mom got really sick, we had two different approaches with him with birth mom, so we're sort of not on good terms at the moment with that. So it was something where I probably have to come to the table again, and embrace that and broach the pace. But um, yeah, God if I did ask her certain things, but it was hard to believe it with that as well. So it's hard to believe what was true or not. So once I got things in writing and stuff, and started speaking, I did believe in a bit more, but she told me a few things over the years. But it wasn't something that I was truly believing.

Bill Campos: 22:40

What the system was telling you found it hard to believe?

Joel Kleber: 22:43

No, no, what telling me stuff about him that I found that I found hard to believe. So it was a thing different various different things.

Bill Campos: 22:51

Now, in terms of how this experience has helped you, can you give us a little bit of insight as to how you're feeling now. Because, like I said to you before, one of the things that people most find difficult is breaching that the ability to cross over all those emotions, to get some resolution and feeling in peace with yourself, because that's a really hard process, especially when some certain things have been built up for so many years. And so, I'd be keen to find out a little bit about where you are now, you know, how has this kind of pivoted your life in a different direction than you would have? If you didn't? If you've never gone down this path?

Joel Kleber: 23:29

Yeah, well, I've definitely lost a lot of like, I don't have as much as I don't have any resentment towards him. I don't have those flashbacks in my head about certain things anymore really about it. In regards to, you know, he's 77. So if he passed away, you know, let's say he passed away this week, I would not have any answer that I wouldn't know. So I'd have all the answers that I need to know. And I will also not regret not making contacts, I've made contacts. I've invited him into my home, he's come over and stay with me for 10 days. So all these different things, I would have no regrets, I would have no regrets if something happened. And I also feel better, I feel more I've got more of an understanding of myself and all my history of that side. And I just feel Yeah, I just feel mentally a lot better. So I've been big way with my head. When it when I did decide to reach out, just forgive me. It's just a big wash of relief. And it's my sort of felt, I don't know, I just felt more freer and freer in my mind. So it's been really good for me, it's been really cathartic. It's been really therapeutic actually, when you just decide to forgive someone and they'll no matter what they do or say to you, or what they've done can have any affect you emotionally, there's a really big power in that. And when you when when you be able to do that, as is such a big step with someone who's done so much or hasn't been there for you or for whatever, you can find that you apply them in other areas of your life as well. So being able to do this, it really focuses you on trying to be more proactive in other areas or trying to fix other relationships that you don't have. And it just makes you I think it makes you just a better person. And overall, make sure far more might be far more karma. And, and less I don't know, I don't know what it is psychologically but less and less less reactive less. I'm definitely less, less emotional now in regards to different things.

Bill Campos: 25:15

Do you still keep in touch with him at

Joel Kleber: 25:17

all? Yeah, absolutely speak to him probably every week. So,

Bill Campos: 25:21

yeah, in. So it's almost like building the relationship again with him.

Joel Kleber: 25:27

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, we I understand for what it is what it is like he, you know, he still tries to be father sometimes and advise me on certain things. And that which is very hard, you know, that's what parents are going to do. But sort of very hard to take any advice from him. But it's now that we talked by whatsapp and stuff, and he sends me emails with different things. And we talk once every week or once every two weeks. So probably come back. You'll probably come back in over the end of the year. So we'll see what happens. But yeah, well, yeah, I talk to my grandma. Yeah.

Bill Campos: 25:56

And in terms of the discussion about your mum, did you ever speak to him about your mum about her passing away? And what are some of the relationship dynamics between him and her?

Joel Kleber: 26:06

Yeah, so we don't, I didn't really get too much in the relationship. But he would just say things, you know, it's very beautiful, very, very good mother, who was very positive about it never said anything negative about her at all. The one thing he kept saying was now I should have stopped those doctors from giving her a CT and I was telling him not to do it, telling him not to do attorney not to do it. And you know, what, my thing is, oh, why don't you stop and and so, but that was it was more nothing negative, really, which is still positive and in regrets about how he wasn't more involved with her treatment, and her care was really the two things.

Bill Campos: 26:37

Okay. Your wider family in, in Victoria, to have a aware and understand little bit more about your kind of situation now in terms of what you've been through with your mom? And, obviously, with your dad now and reconnecting?

Joel Kleber: 26:54

Yeah, well, they're all always involving my mum. So they're all really good people. And they were they were heavily involved in when Mum was in palliative care for four weeks, they obviously all come to see her and all that sort of stuff all the time. So they're completely aware of that. Yeah, my I actually bought my daddy Christmas this year. So he went in to the we have like a couple of family functions, and he went there. He didn't enjoy it too much. But I think he felt rewarded, because they were all he felt. Really, like, you know, all these people hate me. So why why would I go there? But um, I thought I thought they're really good people. So that in mind, but um, I look, I think they think it's a good thing. They think it's a mature thing that I've done. And, you know, it's something that I think, hopefully, there's a few situations that they can maybe maybe learn from, but I'm not, they're all happy for. For me. There's, there's no, there's no like, Oh, why did you reconnect with him? And there's nothing like that. So they're all really good, positive people. It's good

Bill Campos: 27:50

job. I guess the only thing I'd say is what I was hoping to achieve out today and talking to you, he's just just the kind of advice because you might experience that that is one of the hardest things that I find when I'm talking with people to try and get them. Understanding of, you know, when the childhood doesn't go according to where they think childhood should go. And you always look at your childhood with your, through the eyes of a child anyway. And then it's not until you get an adult that you kind of reflect say that, you know, things are very different. And a lot of the difficulties with people getting a closure, like you're saying, you're saying that there's all this stuff happening in the background and time just keeps moving on. And what you want to do is people to move away from just living in that space that's happened and resentment and stuff. And I'd be keen to ask you a little bit about what advice you would give because, you know, there's it's not just people talking, we're going to illnesses, people with substance abuse, it's people with a family breakdown or death of a family or member. There's lots of different emotions that sometimes people struggle to get over, not over. It's not the right word, but to make sense of that to be able to then learn and have a direction in the future that's different from holding them back in the past. So are there things that you think that would be really important as advice or suggestions that would could help other others?

Joel Kleber: 29:10

Yeah, I'd say this in an earlier book called can't hurt me, hurt me by David Goggins, this guy had a really, really hard childhood and a lot more harder than mine, physically and stuff. And, yes, listen to what he went through, and then how he used it as his fuel and stuff, but I'd say, be proactive. If you want to change your life, if your life's not where you want it to be, for whatever reason, these childhood traumas or these, these things can be holding you back and a lot and it does affect your personality, right? So the way the way you are now with people is is a reflection of what's happened on in all this stuff here. So if you don't like who you are, or you want to improve who you are, you need to you need to seriously look at the root cause and be proactive about it and try and change it. Yeah, and the key word as well as get phrases get rid of your ego about it. So everyone's got an ego where someone grieves them. They think I'm not in the wrong I should not The one who should have to come on apologize or make the first that they need to come to me, if you have that attitude, no one's you're never gonna get anywhere, you've got to be proactive in taking control of the situation. So that's mentally, physically, whatever it is, no one's gonna come and help you like, unfortunately think that the world or you know, if you go through a hard thing, the university is going to all of a sudden, you know, you're gonna win a lot of the next day, and it's going to sort you out, it doesn't happen like that. So you've got to, you've got to be proactive if you really want to change who you are. And you've got to understand that the benefits and the rewards are there for doing the hard things. Because it's not, it's not easy doing it, it's very, very hard. It's very, very challenging. But that's where you get the growth, you don't get growth from being comfortable. And for not taking in from not doing hard things, you only get growth when you do hard things. And this, this childhood stuff, or this emotional stuff, all these relationship stuff is the hard stuff. And you've got to go head on into it. And it will be very hard, but it'll be very, very rewarding. And if it doesn't go the way you want it to go, you will then at least you won't have any regret. If it goes the way you want to go then fantastic. But if it doesn't, you're not gonna have any regret either, and you gonna feel a lot better, there is no negative to tackling it. The only negative is you might feel, I think it'd be emotional at the time, or whatever it is. But that's natural, that's normal. But there is no, I don't think there's any negative in trying to be better, and to try and address those things that might be holding you back. Because we don't realize, Bill, like how much these incidents and these things, how they reflect on you as now, like you might act a certain way you do now, because of something that happened 20 years ago, what do you what do you want to go on? If you don't like that part of it yourself? Why wouldn't you want to go in and treat it or try and, and try and move on from it. So that's what I think people do. People a lot of people won't do, because it's just hard, it's not easy to do. And as egos and ego involved as well. And there might be this victimhood or this, which I used to have a lot of victimhood mentality with these sorts of things, but you got to you got to have a bit of perspective and realize, you know, if we're talking about Australia, like we live in a really, really good place, like I'm not, I'm pretty I'm pretty, I'm pretty happy and lucky, where I'll be where I am, you know, a lot of people would trade their position with me. So I try and look at things a bit more, bit more holistically as well. So it's not just, you know, pop woe is me, or this is that, like, there's a far more, you know, it's very cliche, but there's a lot far more worse people worse off people than, than me and what I've gone through, this is just my situation, but there's no, there's no real excuse for anyone. I think not trying to make the effort and do it, there's no, there's no downside to it really long term, in my opinion. And these things, you don't realize how much they do hold you back, they do hold, they do hold you back, and they do affect your personality. And if you can fix it, why not? So that'd be what I would say to people would just be, be proactive, and get the ego out of it. And you've just got to make the first step. And no matter what that first step is, you'll feel better when you do it.

Bill Campos: 32:51

It's really good insight, Joel, and appreciate you being very open and honest with this. I guess, we spoke about obviously, your upbringing, or the situation that happened with your family, we spoke a little about the family connections in relationship. And now obviously, you reconnected with your father, you know quite well, that I'm also a coalition. And I'd be keen to know, what advice would you give to the professions that assist people in mental health? What are some of the things from your perspective for how you grew up that you think, you know, in the cliche question is, if you had a magic wand, how would you change a system? It's a big question, but are these insights that you think you could provide that would help? The professions and the system, the health, the mental health care system that may alleviate some people good might be going through something similar in the future?

Joel Kleber: 33:40

Yeah. In regards to my mum, or were not the carer or? Yeah,

Bill Campos: 33:45

I think there's three areas here, because obviously, you've got your mum as an individual in terms of her illness. That's one part of it. The second one, then is how it impacts on the domino effect around the family. And the third one is literally about the process that you've gone through, for example, when you you pulled out of school, and you know, there must be some better ways of doing some of those things. Yeah, yeah. So So I'm asking a very big questions. And there are three parts to it. But we'll we'll start if it's okay with you. If we'll start with those first three things. So the first one being your mom, what would advice would you give? And I know you've touched upon about ECG and a few times before, but what what do you think are some of the things that the profession needs to take on board as, as something that we should be doing differently? Or better?

Joel Kleber: 34:33

Yeah, well, I don't think I don't think they realize the impact of their treatment on the family. So you know, my when my mum had to have various, you know, AECT and all the medication and that's all sort of experimenting a lot with what you have to do understand that but it was very, we had to deal with this. We had to deal with the effects of it. So I had to deal with the drooling face. Or if I was brought in for a visit, I'll be taken into a room with her and the maybe the day before she's had a CT, and she's saying things about like the devil and this sort of thing, right? I'm gonna I'm in a room With her, so they prioritized her recovery, which is fine. But over my and my younger sisters, what's that going to do to us emotionally? So you've almost forced the trauma on us multiple traumas and asked multiple times, for my mom's benefit over hours, because she was annoying the staff because she wants to see a kid split out, she wouldn't stop about it. So they just didn't get the kids in, and whatever. So but who does that benefit more, benefits her a lot more. And it's really negative to us. So there have been multiple times. So I'd be very careful about letting kids go into psychiatric wards. Yes, you are going to take them into psychiatric wards really make sure that they're prepared for in regards to maybe what they're going to see and actually explain the people in there because the problem why mama, she's really social. So she'd be whipping us around, introducing us to all these patients in there, like these catatonic people or whatever. And it's very embarrassing. I didn't want to meet these people, and they're not nice. They're not they weren't, you know, they were probably just, you know, drugged out of their mind and are sitting there drawing their face or whatever it is, right. So it's not, it's not really good. So that happens a lot. And then you provide a no debrief no sort of context and the social workers and stuff. I just thought that was good to let it happen, which was very, very annoying. But um, yeah, I think shorten saying parents and psychiatric facilities and these these needs to be some sort of more and more care shown for the kid because it can be very damaging. Seeing their parent. Yeah, as I do not know.

Bill Campos: 36:27

Just on that note, and other I don't know what age you were, but would you prefer not to have seen your mom at the hospital? And or would you prefer that the setting would be different, like, they would take you to a neat, different place where you can talk to your mom, as opposed to the psychiatric ward?

Joel Kleber: 36:42

Yeah, it would have been good if she was in a park or something like that. I think that would have been better where we saw her because she was in like, the locked the lock facility we had, it was just the room, you know, there was just the closed room and they closed the door and you were there with a there'd be some toys on the ground. And then she start and she's still mannequin stuff saying all these different things, and wasn't even, it wasn't supervised as well. So um, sometimes will supervise sometimes it wasn't. But it's very, very hard. Because with her condition, she would say a lot of wrong information all the time, a lot of things and we own it, we just believe because it's a mom. So it's very hard growing up knowing what was what was right and what was wrong. So that was very, very heavy. Yeah, definitely different setting would have helped. And not having to go around the facility and walk for the wards and all that sort of stuff, which was not a not a good experience.

Bill Campos: 37:32

When you went to visit your mum, did you have an adult with you like a cousin or an auntie or?

Joel Kleber: 37:38

It depends. So sometimes it was the foster person, or sometimes it was the friends family member who was staying at, there's never any maybe a social worker or something every now and again. But they weren't, they would just sort of leave us with her. And then they would go somewhere for half an hour or whatever it was. So yeah, yeah, that was it. Yeah.

Bill Campos: 37:54

And when you after visiting your mum, would there be it with the teachers at school? No, or would they be aware of some of these things?

Joel Kleber: 38:03

I don't I don't really remember too much that I think some people knew, but it wasn't. Maybe in high school more they would come because it's a small town. So people in a small town know more. Whereas in a city, people don't know as much. So I don't think the teachers the teachers, definitely when we're younger, didn't didn't say much about it or give us any allowances in high school. Some of the teachers knew it. But they basically they might pull you outside every now and again to say oh, you know, your mum's in hospital or whatever. But that was that'd be really it. So. Yeah. And what was the other part? Sorry?

Bill Campos: 38:32

Yeah, the other part we talked about your mom but then the second one, we talked about the family and in terms of your mum been unwell. Was it ever a place where suppose your family when she came out of hospital what how did that came? Like how did they support the family when you were when she came home was it just he

Joel Kleber: 38:51

was more more left on their own like she come out of home mums brothers and sisters in her mom especially were really good to her. So they will they will look after but look, they would have different things in place. So they might have like a nurse coming around every morning to give her medication and make sure she took it because adherence she wasn't good with. She would also also had a caseworker Jodie Wilson, who was right up there until the end she's she was great for her so she'd come around every couple of weeks or every week and check in with her. So that was at the start but then it the support got a lot better as she got older with the NDIS. So yes, at the start it was generally maybe a caseworker once a week and maybe the nurse from the the ward or whatever coming to give her medication. This isn't this isn't horrible, horrible by surprisingly, it was actually far better than Perth, Perth and most have no support from what I remember. When she was when she was came out after three or four months, whatever it was. I maybe can remember one social worker coming over once maybe just see her and that was it. There was no regular checking. There was no nothing in Perth, he was just left on her own. Whereas with Wantable is really good dealt way more supportive. Being a small country town and as the NDIS come in place that was really Good for her. So she had all the community sort of care thing, like, you know, nutrition, you know, someone come and take her out for well, always all these sorts of things. So that was really good for her. Yeah.

Bill Campos: 40:09

That's a good point. So the NDIS was a significant shift in how to provide care.

Joel Kleber: 40:13

Yeah, it was definitely why a big improvement because she got a good decent package as she should have. So that was, that was really good. So she had a lot of good services with that. And, and most of the services, they were there for the right reasons, I don't think now they're trying to rip anyone off or anything. So um, she always had a lot of good support with the NDIS, which I thought was good.

Bill Campos: 40:32

And in terms of, like other professionals that you've seen, like, there's a lot of support for your mum. And you're saying that there's a bit of a gap in support for yourself? At what point did you start to reach out for your own well being if that if I can ask that question? Are there times when you felt like because if I'd need to make sense of this and talk to

Joel Kleber: 40:51

you, I tried to I'd done that probably when I was maybe 29, or 28. But um, I've done it a couple of times, I didn't really find it so useful. I was just talking, talking at someone, and I wasn't getting much, much help. So I sort of gave up on that. So I've only done it probably twice. Growing up, you know, we were sort of maybe offered counseling, or they tried to do counseling with us or something like that and never worked. So we never had any debriefing never had any, any regular, any counseling at all, to be honest. So we had no, no, none of that. So maybe I tried twice when I was 2829. But then I didn't that the people are right, I think I went to once and one session, and that was it. And then the other one, I went for like three or four, but the cost sort of put me off as well. So you know, I'm trying to, I didn't want to have to go and pay all this money for something that I thought that I should have got when I was younger. So it's sort of a bit that's sort of some of this stuff with at the moment, but um, haven't really done too much from it. We didn't get surprisingly, we didn't get much. I didn't think we got the appropriate support growing up with mum in regards to any sort of help in regards to counseling or to psychologist or whatever they might have tried. But yeah, it would have been hard to reach us because we had a big distrust of people involved in this space, because they were the ones taking her away. So um, now we didn't have we haven't had really overly much at all.

Bill Campos: 42:10

It's an interesting point, because I think, yeah, the hard part is how much of it is giving your mom individual support and how much of it you need to give you, you know, the people around the family members to to give that support. There's been a I don't know, if you notice, but there's been a recent announcement that the federal government is going to give money to what they call a carers, peak body and a consumers peak body now to be established around the mental health area. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that. But I think one of the things that we're hoping that will come out of this is the ability then to people who care for people with a complex or severe mental illness, to shed light in about policy development services and give us some insight. And both from a consumer point of view, but also, sorry, Kara's point of view and as a consumers point of view, what do you hope that these sorts of initiatives may, you know, develop in the future that might help?

Joel Kleber: 43:07

Yeah, well, I think, I think the families, you know, the people, their family members is, you know, you know, you're living with the person with the, with the condition. And obviously, the focus is on the person with a condition, that's fine. But you know, your life is affected directly by that person. So the treatments are that sort of stuff. And then there's obviously what about yourself, and it's a complex situation, you know, if someone's parents or something's, you know, a drug addict or something, it's sort of American, it's almost easier to deal with in a way, because, you know, you can probably get in there early and provide support and stuff. And it's easy to deal with when, whereas there's a complex mental illness like, that person might be present for six months and away for three months, whatever it is, but I think I think anything like that is good, I think we tend to focus, obviously, the focus has to be on the person with the condition, but the government's need to realize that it's, that person affects all these people around them. So if they've got a large family, they're affecting 30 to 40 people. And it's not just something that they do once a week or whatever, it's for the rest of the life. So it definitely affects the quality of life around of everyone. And we just want that person to get well and be well and be happy as well. So as I've seen, I have seen the ads for carers and stuff like that, which is fantastic. I think they should they do a great job for the community, a lot go unpaid, and a lot of sacrifice a lot of their own life and life choices. Like there's a lot of kids and people who probably won't leave their town or will leave the area where their mum or dad is because he's there so they sort of sacrifice a bit of their life, for hurt for them. That's what took me long why that's why it took me for a while to move from horrible to Melbourne because I felt guilty so I had a lot of guilt guilt with mum. So she didn't call me she would call me 10 times a day and I would answer even though I'd be rude and hang up on her sometimes still is just there to guilt all the time. So you just the person's life is who's around that person is impacted all the time. So yeah, there are things in place we can do to help them because their life decisions could be altered by by what they do with that person and it's not just what you see, when they're unwell. There's other things as well, that goes on behind the scenes.

Bill Campos: 45:08

And with obviously, you've come in kinda like a full circle, because you've obviously you've gone through this your mum passed away, sadly and you're now kind of reconnected with the Father house, this is experienced quite a made sense of your family situation at the moment.

Joel Kleber: 45:28

Look, it's a very, very tragic situation with Mum, you know, the, the, her condition she got, which was called progressive Supranuclear palsy, I had no idea about this thing. There's so much awareness around it, it's sort of a form of Parkinson's or whatever. The case came really bad. And look, the neurologists and neuroscientists who would be was when I met him said, Didn't, it's surprising. She got airlifted from, from from World War from the nursing home to Melbourne for a patient with a neurologist, neuroscientist, you couldn't go in because of COVID, or whatever it was. So they kicked her outside and a bloody on a bed, and I had to go and have an interview with The New mate, the guy had even no family history. So she's got long, complex history with us even now about the history. So I told him the history, then he told me the diagnosis. And he said, Yeah, that makes sense. She said, if she's at AC T, and lots of stuff over the years, the brain atrophy explains this condition, which is not a genetic thing, either. So um, it was it was, you know, it was very, very frustrating to hear that because I know for a fact, like, you know, based on her how long her mum live for and stuff like that her life probably ended up 15 ended 15 years, 12 years, 13 years prematurely, because of bipolar disorder, really. So that's, that's been very, very hard. And, and look, you can't blame the people treating it, because that's the only way that you had a treat at the time. But I do wish I knew more about it at the time, or my father was someone knew more about the treatments at the time and was stronger with the people treating her. So I don't think I don't think we were strong enough as a family because we knew a CT, there was always a CT all the time straightaway give her a CT, because that was set up. Because to bring it down as quick as we can, there was no attempt to play around with medications or keep her in there for longer than normal and try and get her down with other other interventions, it was always easy to easy to AECT. And you know, she's had that over decades. So that kind of life short by 1513 years. But the other way I look at it is it could have prolong the life because she might have committed suicide or something which I've had been aware from my dad that she was a few times attempted that. So look, I've got sober look at the other way, like she didn't have the AC T or the treatment that she did as aggressively as she could, she might have ended up committing suicide or whatever. But she's had it, it's also ended life prematurely. So that's sort of hard to deal with. But I'm one of those me as well. And that space bill is that the fact that AC T is something that I don't think people really still know that's a treatment or that's used a lot. There has been a lot of brochures and stuff I've downloaded from Black Dog Institute and stuff about bipolar one, I've done a bit of an audit to see about it, and I don't even have AC t this is a treatment. So it's like, well, that is and it's something that's not not spoken about enough. But yeah, I don't know if that answers your question. But um,

Bill Campos: 48:11

it does actually in in relating to another question, because I guess what I'm understanding from what you just explained is, sounded to me and correct me if I'm wrong here, but that the default treatment for your mum had to be or was ECG. And maybe you're looking back in hindsight, and they Hindsight is a wonderful thing. But, you know, there might have been more notice of discovery as to what other treatments could also be helpful, as opposed to a default of just going back to ECG,

Joel Kleber: 48:44

yeah, and also more holistic look at life as well. So she, she had a lot of stresses as well. So she couldn't work every time she wanted to work. And I felt sorry for her because she wants to work and provide and stuff. But every time she worked and got stressed, she got sick. So she couldn't work. But she had no one to hold her and in line with her and saying stop, you know, focus on these things. And, you know, she needed someone to make sure she was eating right. She wasn't getting stressed with us kids, because she wasn't a big disciplinarian at all. So we sort of do our own thing. So she needed some help with parenting. So she got all this stuff later on. So when I when I was like 2122 really good support from like a caseworker in like making sure she got to the gym or she's had a nutritionist, all this sort of stuff, like she's a professional athlete, but she had all these different things. And whereas before we had that at a far earlier stage, I think it would have helped a lot in regards to not having to go to a CT all the time, I think because they had limited beds in space and stuff they just wanted someone is in there as an as quick as possible. Long term, was it the right thing like for them to do you know, probably not but um, that was just the reality of the time.

Bill Campos: 49:50

Yep. So I'm taking the kind of the take home message from what you're just saying that we as a profession, we need to actually be much more mindful of the varied and diverse sort of approach to supporting someone with mental illness with, you know, various different attempts in various different areas, rather than just focusing on one or two.

Joel Kleber: 50:09

Yeah, I think I think you own it from talking a lot of people that sort of stuff. I hear the same thing. You know, what, from talking to people with bipolar disorder, and other conditions in that way, so same thing, you know, exercise, you know, making sure I'm getting up every day, all these basic things. So what what support can you put in place to help with the basic things to say, you don't have to go to all these hard things straightaway, but yeah, would have been good if they knew because I, then you had a fair bit of history honor, they all knew about us, so that they could have had a bit more insights into it, instead of just talking going straight to, you know, a lot of harsh drugs and, and the other treatment, you know, knowing the person a bit more and being a bit more holistic in their support, because once you got that more holistic support, when she got older, she was a lot less sick. And that's what was frustrating, because you sort of think, well, if that's you were as your brain was deteriorating, as you get older, she was a bit less sick than what she was when she was more healthier. So it was very frustrating to see that we learned that probably a bit too late.

Bill Campos: 51:11

Was there anything in your experience, we're looking at your mum that really helped her and really helped you?

Unknown: 51:18

In regards to,

Bill Campos: 51:19

to her illness? Was there anything that you feel okay, the wish we could have kept doing this? More of that? Oh, yeah. Yeah,

Joel Kleber: 51:27

yeah, I definitely think with her, you know, like, she needed that she's very social. So daily contact with people, making sure making her feel as though she was involved in and she busy, she had to be busy all the time. So you had to be going out saying friends or doing this and that, so she had to stay busy. If he didn't stay busy issue, just sleep all day, and not do anything at home and eat bad. But for her, it was really important to, to have diet have some sort of purpose. So whether it be doing some, like TAFE course or something like even though she couldn't use it, letting her believe that as well. And probably probably more listening with her. So the problem my mum was that she always used to say things, which I knew weren't true. And I used to just call around all the time, because I just got sick of it, I realized that that wasn't the right thing to do. There's no not talking to her. Sometimes I'm talking to the illness. And then with her, just from a support point of view, I, I found myself always getting really frustrated with it, but I just sort of, I've learned a lot later, it was more just been that it's been mad at the other person. So you know, I find myself getting worked up I think she'd saved but then I started learning to separate that from from her as a person. But ya know, it was very, very tough in the light, you know, the the best thing in the end was like she had palliative care for weeks, like she's lying in a bed and she's crowded move. And this PSP condition was is very, very cool. And, and she deteriorated but to be there for four weeks, was the best thing. I could pay her back for raising me. So that was the the best, the best, the best moment of my life source of being the worst moment of my life, because I've been able to, she supported me for these issues a great mother. And then that last four weeks when she really needed me when she was dying, like she's laying in bed and she passed away, I was being able to their finger for 10 to 12 hours a day with her and be there for her. So when she passed away, there's a lot of rich people who die with no one around them, and no one loves them. Your mom didn't have much at all. But in the last four weeks, she had people there every day, she knew she was loved, she had a lot of great support. So in the end, like you know, even though it's a tragic sort of ending, you know, with anyone who dies, dies early from something that, you know, I thought was brought on by by his treatment, she ended up having a good successful life, in my opinion, because, you know, you can have all the positions in the world. But when you when you're there to meet your maker at the end, no one wants to die alone, right, and who's there with you, you know, all the money in the world. But there's a lot of people who die alone and unhappy. So she was happy at the end, she had all her friends and family there. And that was the best thing I learned was just having a lot of understand a lot of empathy for her and a condition. And I really had a lot of closure towards the end. And I don't blame her for anything at all. And she was a great mother and she tried her best. And a lot of times I used to grow up and she used to get me I'm trying I'm trying to say to her, Well, you're not trying enough, you need to do this. Yes. But now I realized that was the completely wrong thing to say. And she did try our best and she did a good job and, and myself and my sister have a really good you know, have a good life and we were successful in our own things. So she did a job and a lot better than a lot of other people. So who had no excuses as she did. So that's sort of what I got out of it in the end.

Bill Campos: 54:31

Don't I don't have any further questions. And I think that's a great way to kind of in this sort of interview is just on that note because I think I think when you interviewed me I think one of the things that people sometimes miss is that there are those moments of of you cherish you know with with my mom, I know that there was a couple of times where she was so full of life that was just so wonderful to be around. And people sometimes don't associate mental illness with that kind of behavior.

Joel Kleber: 55:05

A great, let's think about Paulo I can, when they're, when they're manic and up and about and stuff, it can be very fun. You know, and they can be a lot of different things. But um, yeah, you're right. And I used to look at with my upbringing and my mom way more negative than positive. Now it's completely flipped. I don't remember anything negative at all, it's all positive. And if someone tries to bring me back to negative stuff, I just I don't want to know about it. So I've completely flipped it. And it's, it's been far better.

Bill Campos: 55:29

Yeah. And I'll show you something else too, which I thought was really important, because you touched upon is my relationship with my mom now is, is that I still see her probably twice a week, three times a week, sometimes when I talk to her almost every day. But what I find is exactly what you just mentioned, was the she, she just loves to talk. And it's you don't necessarily listen to what she's talking about. But the fact that she is talking to you, and you're connecting, and you're not making judgment, it's almost therapeutic for her and you kind of as as a son, you kind of feel like, that's my role. My role is not to judge what she's saying, is just to listen, allow her to kind of express her thoughts. And that's probably more important than actually judging what she's saying.

Unknown: 56:16

Exactly right. You're spot on.

Bill Campos: 56:18

Yeah. So anyway, I just thought I'd share that with you. Because I think it's a good, good thing. Joe, I thank you so much for your time, I honestly don't think a lot of people have the kind of courage or the ability to actually be so frank and honest with the sort of things that you just spoke about. But in order to kind of allow people to have these difficult discussions is important to have someone to kind of open up and, you know, divulge some personal things and give some insights, I think that's probably the most important thing about your podcasts that I take out of it, is the insights that need to be brought up to surface and understand how people make decisions around mental health care, that these things are very pertinent, you can sometimes get lost in the system itself. But the actual interaction day to day needs to be at the forefront of how we make some decisions or thoughts or even support care for the loved ones. So I'm appreciate, then likewise, I really do appreciate your talking to us. I don't know how you want to capture this podcast and how you want to slice and dice. And I'm going to leave it in your complete hands. But I guess from my point of view, what I can say is your experience and how particularly how you're now coming to the point where you're engaging again with your dad, and you're resolving some of the things that you've gone through in your childhood. And you're putting a different lens and perspective on what you experienced as a child with now what you experience, as an adult, looking back as a child is really important. I can't tell you enough how many people I've seen in my office who have so many difficulties in having that taking that brave step to say now I really do need to make this front and center and you know, reconnect or you know, open up the door to answer some of those questions rather than just leaving it because it's a quite a quite often a lot of people think it's just easier, and just leave it. And having that step is really important, because then it opens up other doors that alleviate some of the tensions and the emotions that you've been holding for so long. So that to me, it was really important to capture in this interview, and I really do appreciate the fact that you've been so open and honest about your situation.

Joel Kleber: 58:36

I appreciate it, Bill now. Thanks for Thanks for this initiative. This was your idea. So I really appreciate it. And yes, we've been on the other end of of answering answering questions. So now I appreciate it. I appreciate your interest in it. And, you know, as I said, you know, it's great to have your story when we had your talk. These are the stories I think your story especially as we need to, we need to say more, you know, I think mental health awareness is still at a point where everyone's you know, it's sort of like the trendy thing to jump on it and you know, we're supporting this or we're supporting that and progression and whatever like so there's a lot of there's a real meat there's a lot of meat and potatoes stories, you know, like what we went through there. These are the for me, are the real stories. And then that stuff that you need to hear more of not a not an athlete who misses six weeks through depression, and I'm not making light of that. I'm just saying that the real stuff that we know about it that you know about in your work that goes on the general populace don't know about and it's learned. It's hopefully with governments with the carriers and all these things that are happening now. There's a lived experience thing they're doing as well. They're starting to slowly shift funding towards other areas, not just hotlines and service level hotlines, and, and marketing campaigns and things. Yeah, I

Bill Campos: 59:46

agree and Charlie and I are on the exact same page is I do think we need to I think I mentioned when you were doing our interview, we need to have that. I use the analogy of type one and type two kind of mental illness Same as what they do in diabetes. And I think there needs to have that discussion to start saying, okay, there are people with significant mental illnesses, you know, and it's hard to identify because it's not like you can do a test and identify someone's got a mental illness, it over time, you start to realize the kind of emotional and behaviors start to accumulate over time to say that this person has some significant mental distress that is impacting on their day to day life, as opposed to in not dismissal, just like you're saying, it's not to dismiss that people might be going through a mental health experience, like a condition like you know, you know, stressing over a certain job or stressing over, you know, some family tensions or words, a breakup, those will still affect you emotionally. But they're not necessarily an emotional illness, because that's a life transition stage that difficult to go through. But people get get through it, it's just a matter of supporting them to get through that. Whereas a mental illness is something that, you know, it's something that you manage, throughout all my mum, and I'm sure a lot of other people, you have to kind of manage the entire life with these ups and downs of the things, and it has a direct effect on the family around that person.

Joel Kleber: 1:01:11

That's right. And it's never it's not, you know, it's not really a direct positive effect, it's going to be a direct negative effect, right? So, holding all things equal, you know, we don't know how differently we would be, but that's the way governments are gonna look at it, right? So this person has got bipolar, and let's say 1%, or 1.5, whatever the studies, right? Yes, that person might have five people directly around him, these five people are always going to be not saying negatively affected by that person in a negative way. Yeah, their life is impacted in a different way. So it might be something where they, they might not move home to take up financial opportunities, because they're worried about their mom or their father or whatever on or their dad might have enough and then leave, and then all of a sudden, they're the ones involved. So it affects so much more than just that one person. And that's what they've got to realize. And economically, it makes more sense for governments to make sure that we want everyone as productive as possible in society. So what supports can we have in place for family units who support these people, because if there's six or five people around this one person, and then and they decide, look, life's too hard, Mom's got mental illness, you know, I'm not going to achieve anything and go on your negative and negative outcomes are more for people in these situations. So it just makes sense from a from a governance point of view, to support to whatever to you know, community care, like what you do, and all these other things that are coming out, throw the funds behind that, because the more relief and the more burdens you can ease with the family side or with friends, or whatever it is, who's supporting this person, the more positive outcomes they're gonna have in their own life, and they can go on to achieve better things and not getting dragged down to the victimhood mentality, well, my mum or dad's got a mental illness, you know, that means I can go out and do this and that and whatever it is. So I think it's important what you guys do, and hopefully they can start getting more more funding towards these community care organizations. And the ones that look after the kids like satellite foundations, we always talk about in these other organizations, because it's so much more important because as we both know, we've gone we've we've been, we've turned it all right, you know, we've we've gone and done out their own thing. And, you know, we're not, but there are people who don't know, use it as a crutch, or they use their gun or victim mindset. And they have, they have look, they have every right so I'm not saying you can't not be a victim or not. But it's so easy to see why people you know, let's say in the street, you pass a bloke who's homeless, or you know, who might be washing the windows with the with the bottle of water and you think, you know, that guy's just did this or this and that, like, you don't know what's happened in that block, he might have had a mom or a parent with serious mental illnesses, and he left home at 14 on this unit, you don't know. So that's why it's really important for governments to fund not just the surface level and these hotlines and stuff which are fine, but there's real meat and potato organizations like yourself and that who get in there and support the person and in turn helps the family unit and that leads to more positive outcomes, nine for the person but for the other people around him. So it's not just one person it could be six 710 that are directly impacted

Bill Campos: 1:04:04

in that job because I think you're completely right that it does affect that ripple effect with family but sadly to say that there are also people with mental illness who there who lose their connection with family who or the family just are not able to cope or you know, have common resentment and then not only is it difficult going through life with a mental illness, but then not having a connection or a support or family or friends or something like that is I mean that's part of the kind of work that we do but it's incredibly incredibly isolating and damaging and difficult for someone

Joel Kleber: 1:04:39

there's a film called Happy happy sad man and if you've seen it by Genevieve Baylor have heard about I haven't seen it really good watch. And yeah, that happened with one of the characters. Sam was still involved with the father but he was done some things at family events and half of the family didn't speak to him or whatever. Yeah, you're right. And then obviously, after communities as well, there's some I've had a few guests on I Asian background? And yes, yeah. And they sit in their culture, you know, not even. It's like an embarrassment or like a shame for the family. So you want to understand spot on. Yeah.

Bill Campos: 1:05:12

Joel, thank you so much for your time. I really do appreciate it. If you need anything further from me, I'm happy to help me out. Because I think what you're doing is really good. I have to say I'm really, really envy the fact that actually taken on initiative and sharing some of these stories, and I've been looking at all your podcasts a lot of times. So it's really good, really good insight. So I even recommended people to come in. So if you need more people to come in, yes. No, yeah. No, I'm happy to do it. Like I said to you before, there's quite a lot of people in our organization and some other people I know, who have experiences similar to what I have, who probably would like maybe have an avenue to talk about it. So I might point you in the right

Joel Kleber: 1:05:52

direction. Yeah, fantastic. Yeah. Thanks, man. Be Awesome.

Bill Campos: 1:05:55

Leave it to them. Thanks again.

Unknown: 1:05:57

Thanks so much. Take care. Talk soon. Thanks, Bill.