Hi guys, my name is Joel Kleber and welcome to the lived experience the show that shares personal stories from people with lived experience of mental health issues carers and mental health professionals. If you're a first time listener, welcome to the live experience family. If you're returning a listener, thank you very much for your ongoing support, it's much appreciated. This way to support the show is to leave a review online or follow me online at the booth experience podcast. And also feel free to send me a message because I'd love to hear from you. On this episode I spoke with Rachel was the who's the founder of neuro Diversity Media, which is about creating resources to help neurodivergent people in the workplace. Now that same night neurodivergent, you might have been hearing a lot more of especially watch shows like love and a spectrum. And Rachel goes into all that today's episode. She also has various corporate speaking events as well and also has autism and ADHD as prescribed hear from someone firsthand about the issues raised concerning people who are new or divergent. on this show, we talk about a large range of issues surrounding ADHD in autistic people. And I really appreciate how I can make sure that everything, I've left the website in the detail note, so please check it out online and YouTube. If you are interested, she does have a great lizard resource lobby, which I recommend you read some of those articles as well. So hi, everyone with me today is Rachel was Lena Rachel was the is the founder of neuro device Diversity Media. Plus, you've got a whole host of other achievements, which we'll let you talk about. But I'm Rachel um, you know, Diversity Media is a company which creates resources for people for neurodivergent employees, let's say with ADHD, or autism or anything like that. And maybe before I go any further, I want to talk about your company itself and what you do.

Sure, so. So I'm the founder and CEO of neurodiversity media. And I describe it as a media company that creates accessible information resources that unleash the potential of neurodivergent people in the workplace, but also helping to support network of families and friends, as well as employees with kind of the same knowledge, I suppose. So what's sort of contained, the main product we have is the resource library, which contains articles infographics, and on so you read diversity in the workplace. And it's just about based on scientific research based on the evidence of what are the best strategies, tools and tips that we can use to help neurodivergent people in the workplace because the idea is there's all this knowledge kind of in the space, but it's not being made access accessible in terms of being tailored to people's learning styles, and also just simply understanding how to use these tools to best help everybody. So that's kind of what we are in a nutshell.

Now people get your website and read up about yourself, but maybe just want to be the mother. So how did this all come about? How did you come to establish this or you saw a need for it?

So for me, I'm, I have some autism and ADHD, I was diagnosed officially in 2018, at the age of 25. After a career in medical journalism, and then I was getting a law degree at a time I worked in marketing and law firms by just realize I just sort of struggled to pay attention, little simple things were really difficult deals, always very emotional, I was always struggling with just jealous stuff that I just thought was, you know, hard, easy for some people that I'm like, but you know, cooking was difficult for me and that sort of thing. And so for me, it is all added up when I did my research and went okay, maybe it is ADHD, autism, got the diagnosis. And then I tried looking for information, you know, to help me at work and to explain to my boss what I could do, what they can do to help me and I found basically, a lot of misinformation, a lot of, you know, just jargon and just nothing that was helpful. And so I felt that as part of that journey in trying to understand myself, my ADHD, my autism, I kind of realized, well, we need to get this information out there to everybody. So yeah, I started new windows media to help organizations who were trying to indicate a message but then I just decided to do the journalism myself put out a newsletter, and I eventually turned it into a platform called the resource library to ensure that people have this ongoing source of information in a one stop shop sort of platform.

Now, you said there before you were diagnosed until you're 25. Now Why so late in the pace

it's so it's got a lot to do with the stereotypes and prejudice and stigma around autism, ADHD, especially in women. A lot of people believe that, you know, autism, ADHD only happens in boys and not in girls or women. And so lots of people like me, especially for us, we are able to mask our symptoms or was able to compensate better through, you know, high, you know, high IQ or just simply just just having to conform as part of being a woman in society. So, yeah, a lot of that just gets flown under the radar. There's a lot of mis education of doctors around sort of like, you know what ADHD, autism is in women. So it's just sort of this compounding cycle of a lack of, you know, evidence, a lack of information education, a lack and just as widespread stigma and prejudice that's often reinforced by mainstream Media. And I guess that was sort of the one of the biggest sort of challenges for me was sort of being from a media background. And you know, journalism had given me a good in the working professional world, but just realizing that people also basically erased people like me from being represented and actually identify as people were supporting.

It was quite interesting. This was a complete coincidence, but I was watching love on the spectrum for the first time. I don't know if you've seen that series. But they met that as a get there's a lady in there who I think she got diagnosed when she was 18, or 19, or something like that. And I thought it was this like, and she said, the similar thing to what you're saying. It's not, there's no nothing really around women with that. It's all men, which I found quite interesting.

Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's just so common now. And I think by having more more the stories hit like the mainstream media, you know, it's really ABC and also just, you know, like to say here mentions of women of ADHD all the time now, on the radio, it seems to be at least once a week compared to nothing at all. You know, for years, it's just hopefully, you know, opening people's eyes to just different ways that ADHD autism present, especially in women, because I think that said, there's such a huge cost, we're not being diagnosed early, I think, you know, lots of people are misdiagnosed with anxiety and depression for years and years, and when it's actually untreated ADHD, and they may have those conditions as well. But actually, what really helps to manage anxiety or depression is just actually treating ADHD because ADHD has medication as one tool out of many tools to treat it can be very effective, more effective to antidepressants really, in a lot of cases. So I think it's sort of that's why for me, it feels like a public health issue, almost as big as diabetes really, um, that for, especially for women, because it just changes like, you know, it changed my life having this diagnosis and accessing the treatment and the knowledge and understanding of why my brain works differently from everybody else. I think everyone deserves the same kind of access to that sort of treatment and understanding of who they are.

Why do you think in the research that there's been such a disparity then like you think being you know, people who study this sort of stuff, it's all artists can find it really, I've got a patent on that point, that's all focused on boys or men, whereas there's nothing for women, I just find it quiet. I just, I just find it really hard to reconcile.

Yeah, it's, I guess, I'm very lucky to having worked in medical journals, and then having lots of contact with GPS and doctors on either day to day and understanding medical school, especially right is that medical school medicines traditionally been very patriarchal, very male focus. And then as a result, it kind of trickles into the research in academia where a lot of the study, so a lot of studies done in around autism, ADHD, will focus on male presentations. And it's just simply, it's simple things like not even considering women were worth studying at all, you know, those kind of scientific positions means like, yeah, then it's a sort of very easy to, it's very easy to dismiss a problem when there's no data, or research to back it up, right. And so part of what I do at neurodiverse media is even just start pulling out the data and research. And it's actually one of the most popular pieces, because people if you don't even know what the data is, or what the stats are, or what even the evidence is to support your argument that this should be a problem to address, and no one will ever take you seriously. So no one will take this problem seriously. So that's kind of where I'm at.

But some of the data or the findings, you could probably put us on what was some interesting ones that you have told me ahead?

Well, I think, for example, just kind of, you know, it's kind of a good question. So some of the statistics are the neurodiversity employment statistics, I suppose is simply just knowing that, for example, in 2018, like this 205,000 Australians have autism, which was a 25% increase back in 2015. So just even knowing that it's, the prevalence is increasing, but also putting context around it by saying that it's actually because of better diagnosis. And I wouldn't be surprised if it's of women to not because like, Oh, it's become an exploding problem. Just the fact that, you know, 34.1% of sticking to AWS isn't taught isn't right is sort of, like that's a high unemployment rate. 34.1%. You know, that's three times the rate of people with disability, General disability, and that's huge for autism alone. You know, and just, even so this is just sort of stats drawn from an article that we've put together on 22 stats in neurodiversity. It's sort of those kind of stats when you say it out loud, and show people that this is a huge problem. And just for this one condition very disproportionately compared to our little ones. Yeah, for me, I just find that's kind of really concerning. But the problem is that you don't hear about those stats. It's actually in the research papers, just spend all these papers and just pull it all out.

Yeah, you almost needs this. Like that's why that's why we're talking about that show before. Do you think that show was sort of good and away, at least raising some awareness to some level, especially with let's say that the young lady who didn't get diagnosed or 19 This was also really surprised. Well, that's,

yeah, I think shows like that can be really helpful as long as like the producers have lined on extensive consultation with the community. So actually, I, personally myself has spoken to those producers before in the past, offering my perspective and like they've come across, it's been really supportive of really consulting and listening to the community. I think it's also really shared a little bit more in season two as well, just about trying to ask the right questions to get those kinds of insights to show the misconceptions and all that. So I find it it really comes down to mainstream portrayal it's really taking that time to engage the community, understand and ask those really good questions to kind of elicit these insights and representations that we wouldn't otherwise know about.

Now who champions the cause in your eyes regards to let's say, the mainstream like obviously, with mental health, mental health generally associate with beyondblue and headspace but there's a lot of other sub causes you don't get that much attention. So is there any sort of like big organization or who really champions in your in your area?

That's a very good question, I suppose. Um, look, there are several there's there's organizations of neurodiversity even the concept itself, right is I sort of found even even that definition really is to give some context is it was invented by an Australian sociologists basically called Judy singer, right. Most of you didn't realize neurodiversity was an Australian concept. And this was invented back in 1988. And it's only been the last few years that's really kind of taken off. But Originally, it was meant to kind of describe autism, Asperger's Syndrome, it's sort of then, you know, it also went into ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, which is like, struggles with coordination movement. You know, dysgraphia is struggling writing or does calculus struggle, the numbers up to Rett Syndrome? But you know, others have also talked about in terms of bipolar mental health. So it's sort of quite broad, right. But I look at that neurological sense, I suppose. I suppose. What I think what how that relates is that in terms of one organization that represents it, it's been very condition specific, because when you look at all these conditions, as far as the cover, neurodiversity, you would say the biggest, loudest ones will be say autism awareness, Australia, or you know, ADHD, Australia ADHD Foundation, there's so many different ones right to Steven mentioned, that. I do know, there's, there's a organization called neurodevelopmental Australia that's trying to bring it all together. But yet, we're still in really early days of an organization naturally represents neuro diversity. But also I feel like maybe it's kind of the point as well. It's sort of like, if you try and be one to represent all that doesn't always work. Sometimes it's just about having organizations prove their own natures, but then it's about actually creating some kind of way of better collaboration through all dental represent neurodiversity?

Yeah, I think I think it's a really good point. So this stats, as you said, it's really important to have statistics when you when you try and do these sort of things, people can relate to it, it's quite a, it's quite a large number. I think people realize how many people have autism. And these sort of things I don't think people understand, actually understand that the numbers and as you said, it's probably not, it's not becoming more prevalent, it's becoming better known. And there's obviously more things like that, but um, I just think it's such an under, under resourced, from what I can tell under there's not much awareness as a champion calls or some sort of, let's say, celebrities, or someone, you know, pushing this sort of thing, and it's quite, I just think it's for how many people would know someone who got this sort of condition? It's quite, it's quite disappointing.

It's just, it's just crazy. I mean, like, he it's feels like everyone I talked to you like, even if it's nothing do work the supermarket or that's like every second person I talked to, they're like, Oh, I know, you know, a family who's got a child's autistic or my, my child's autistic? Yeah, I know, it is. It's sort of like that ever. It's sort of, well, it is pretty much where neurodiversity is was like mental health 2030 years ago, like everybody kind of knew somebody who struggled but just didn't want to talk about it openly, or didn't have a forum, or some kind of organized effort that we see mental health now that to talk about it. So that's where neurodiversity is pretty much in that dark ages 2030 years ago with mental health.

Yeah, that's a great point. Right, Rachel? I think it's a really good, good analogy for it because we're getting so I used to play footy with kids and we save let's say occasion, you'd have a kid let's say with special needs. And sometimes it might be kiddo he's got autism and sort of a yet really now explain you what it is that he said, Oh, this kid's got autism. So this poor kids in there, you know, trying to fit in with the with the team or whatever. And you just told this is a label, you don't understand what that what it means or anything, but you're trying you treat them like anyone else. But um, but I reckon You're right, you hit the nail on the head with that it's probably 2030 years, probably from where mental health was regards to the awareness or people having knowledge of it for such a common issue, which is becoming more and more.

It's crazy, I think, and it does come back to the you know, just even getting the data to a certain how many people have it because even the data are there, right? It's sort of like it's still kind of an underestimate, right? Like, that's kind of it's sort of because you're presuming the numbers are based on people who actually go on and get a diagnosis now, lots of people Including adults today, don't pursue a diagnosis for lots of reasons, mostly including its cost and effort, and time. And so many self diagnose, but that's not captured by the statistics, you know, and many people live their entire lives or years, probably having it for sure display all the symptoms, they work in workplaces who are very tolerant and, and go away a bit and fine, and they just don't know. So it's sort of like, you know, you go, it's a huge problem, when you look at the most up to date stats, but I go, it could still be a lot more because I just think it's just an underestimate.

So what's the barrier to getting a diagnosis for someone if they thought they had it? What's the cost? Or what's the real? What's the barrier there?

The costs is probably the biggest one, because it also really depends on how thorough and you want to do it, right. I think my ADHD diagnosis in a sense, and then confirmed with autism as well. You know, $500, for my first appointment with private psychiatrists,

especially a lot of money, no subsidy, no, no, no subsidy or nothing.

No, not really actually was it? If it's Medicare, I even then I still had to pay more than $400 out of pocket for that one. Because I guess especially speaking specifically on ADHD, it's not something Believe it or not, that's treated in public hospitals, public hospitals do not treat ADHD, which is ridiculous. It's only ever done through the private psychiatry system, then that's a really huge, you know, sort of out of pocket costs. And so not only that, it's sort of the India is, in general hasn't really recognized ADHD isn't disability, what funny are like autism and ADHD is disabling for a lot of people. So then that's a huge cost, as well to get to kind of support. So there's, yeah, there's the support, there's sort of the cost of getting the, to get the diagnosis in the first place. You know, medication for ADHD could be an issue, for example, just sort of, you know, just That's for me, I just always think that's huge. The main there is the costs.

That's crazy for me, because hearing because remember, growing up, you'd always have a kiddo, you know, Chuck kids in your class, you would have a DD or ADHD they'd have various forms of medication or something. So I had no idea that was not a public health. It's not on public health, it also sold an external.

Yeah, it's just crazy. And you know, it's not until like, and even the medications for ADHD days, there's been huge disparities, right? It wasn't till January this year, that for example, vyvanse, which is a long acting form of decks, amphetamine, which is what I do, is like, was actually subsidized. There was only like, 20 or $30 people paying $120 a month, just, it was just crazy. You know, it's just that because of that disparity in that lack of interest, and it just took a fair bit of lobbying for that to even get some kind of parody. Like, it sounds like diabetes medication was done extensively in our range. So yeah,

and it's sort of like, yeah, and not saying, Yeah, I completely agree. And it's something that's not brought on by anything. It's just something that Yeah, you have, but I thought understanding so because I see a lot of kids I knew who would have ad add to have ADHD have the dex, the the dexys, or whatever that would have, and all that sort of stuff. And I'm just amazed to hear that it wasn't on Medicare or a back

there, I should quickly clarify. Right. So the cost itself, the reason why it was exorbitant, was actually there was a unfair disparity of when you were diagnosed with ADHD. So you were diagnosed below 18, your medication was new medication options were pretty subsidized was pretty, because any people at least believe that ADHD is in kids, right? If you are lucky enough to be diagnosed after the age of 18, as I was, you know, until recently, with vyvanse, for example, you had to pay $120 out of pocket, just because you're unlucky enough not to have a doctor who actually understood you the load, he gave you that diagnosis. It was ridiculous. There was no scientific evidence base to justify that there were submissions that were rejected in the past, which I read. That was like, Yeah, like, you know, there's no evidence that it's actually good in an adult population. I'm like, what's the difference between ADHD kid and coming as an adult? Like, that's? Yeah, it's, it was just like, you know, because it's that cost benefit analysis. And obviously, because at the time, it's like, well, that's a bit of a slippery slope, maybe to subsidize hundreds more people as an adult. But it was really based on this. You know, there's, you know, some of it is really based on this really misguided notion that you grow out of ADHD when you're an adult, but you don't ADHD is a lifelong neurodevelopmental condition. Like,

yeah, I think that's an assumption that a lot of people have, Rachel is what you said, and people think you have it as a kid and you grow out of it. But as you said, as clearly that's not the case. No, no. And you know,

I think that's why a big part of this, this Yeah, the discussion that we need to have right is there's a lot of these missing misconceptions you have to tackle. And the best way to do that is to continue to have really proper media representation. So people like myself and others, right to show that actually it really does affect a lot of people in the cross section of society, especially professionals, you know, who hold successful jobs. It's not to say it's not pausing to think about those who are really vulnerable. And that's that whole spectrum too, as well, that it's, that's kind of it this this whole sort of subsection of arses. Lots of us. You know, we may look successful on paper, but we are really struggling in lots of different areas online that causes a lot of problems in society.

Now with their kids with ADHD, like have a lot of people will know the words or not know, the know the letters, but they probably won't. They might have some idea, but they won't understand. So what is what is ADHD to you? And what was the like before and after you sort of found out? You had that condition?

Yeah, so ADHD really stands for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, which innocence lots of people say it's a bit of a misnomer, because it's not really a deficit of attention that we struggle with. It's the regulation of that attention span. So what that just basically means is that for someone like me, it was if and it was just very hard to pay attention, things that do not interest me. So it's kind of based on the idea that the ADHD brain is interest wired. So it is always like all this, like interest wired, but I'm saying ADHD is an extreme, it's like, either you're super interested in one thing, or you're just not super interested in most people are just sort of kind of at least nicely in the middle and go, both, you know, one side or the other side. But we're like, oh, that side or that side. And it's the extremes. That is what characterizes a diagnosis of ADHD. So for me, it's sort of like, I can be very hyper focus on things like English and writing and spend hours and hours and hours, but even doing maybe a simple thing, like, how did I put the bins out? Or it's like, you know, like, Oh, just losing, losing all my, like, travel cards in local cars in New South Wales, right? I just, you know, I have like, I still have a pulse on them that I just dug out the other time, like, just but losing things so much all the time. You know, you just do the simple checklists, what are you still lose them, it's just that extremeness of that disorganization, because you just don't remember pay attention to that. And it then that causes that distress, because you go about why can I just do like my Can I just not keep losing it or that you just, and then if I can do focus 12 hours and remember every single thing in this project, and that that extreme sort of nature for me, right was sort of, you know, it kind of always kept offsetting itself, but it just causes mental health breakdown half the time, because it's just so and so what was the diagnosis, it's just sort of being able to take medication, but also learn how my brain works. So I know how to optimize my interest brain to work on things a lot, but have, you know, sort of guidelines or guardrails to kind of make sure I still do the other important things in my life, you know, and, and that's kind of it right. So the moment you kind of understand that's how your brain works. And there's actually nothing wrong with it, you just learn how to optimize your life, to focus on things, you enjoy it, and then make sure you get support and help from other people, or put in strategies to manage things that you're not good at. And so that's been the difference for me getting the diagnosis, then you've

obviously been able to harness the good, the good part of it to be able to do a law degree with honors to do to do the business, you're doing really good marketing journalism. So you've, you've been able to harness that, that part in that way as well.

Yeah, it's, it's it's a really good point in Rancho because it's sort of it really does come down to you know, some people have been, you know, like, like me, I've been able to compensate I suppose by, but you know, often to distract away. And I guess that's been a really interesting reflection. My experience, too, was like, for me, I go, lots of big ADHD may sort of try and compensate by alcohol and drugs and all that. Well, for me, the biggest problem is I just worked too much, because I needed a lot of activity to stimulate my brain all the time. So I always had lots of things juggling, but you know, I didn't actually really realize too, even recently, to be honest, I was like, okay, like, at least that sort of encouraged in our working world, right, that's working on doing all these things, keeping busy was sort of a thing that you know, at least for what until now, you know, we all more recognizing of like you know, having to slow down take a break, but it was celebrated if you're able to work and do different things and all that so kind of indulgent and I realized, Oh, that was just really a coping strategy to keep my brain focus and not wanting that downtime because it's actually a dopamine thing. It was like it was like self medication like some people want it to you know, like guess drink a lot of coffee like people I know have ADHD drink lots of coffee to sell medicate So did I and then I've actually cut my coffee use down to like, almost zero now, because I might medications is so much more stable. So it's sort of, um, you know, I think that's why it's important to have that conversation or just because it seems like someone has this really successful thinking outside. Well, I think like that compensation strategy den actually leads a lot of negative things in your life, like, you know, sort of broken relationships with people and family and whatever, which I'm just sort of being able to put back now because I go, Oh, okay. That's it. Like I have to now understand how to balance the rest of my life. Because my compensation strategy to keep me focused and all that is good on one level, but it's not always good what you need to have a balance of all things. And it comes with understanding how your brain works and why you why why you're motivated to do that, you know, and just do something to correct the course. Now, it's

interesting hearing that, because like, when you grow up, obviously, you have kids who have ADHD, and add, and you sort of think, well, the way that the schools are structured or for the teaching, if they just sort of knew that all the teachers and other teachers have a lot on their plates to do at the moment, I'm gonna be everything, but it's actually knew that this kid or this kid can be hyper focused and something he's really passionate about, you know, that's the stuff you'd want to, you'd want to push them towards. And unfortunately, I don't think a lot of the schools are geared to that sort of thing. So I can see how you personally say early on who's diagnosed or has it early on going through school could find it really difficult.

It's a really good point, actually, because I really want to stress just how ADHD is so different in everybody. So I noticed a lot of people who say, Oh, you know, you've got ADHD and you really struggle in school, you get your grades. And I'm like, No, I was a straight A student. The only subjects I didn't do very well on was like maths and physics. And the school comments on those reports is interesting. Felt like Jekyll and Hyde. It was like Rachel is amazing. And the model student in history in English and look at my maths and physics, it's like shooting, it's all the very classic ADHD thing. She's like, she needs to try harder, which is why I was like, What the hell I'm the same person. It's just like different subjects, you know?

But now interested in obviously now just in maths and physics, and that,

yeah, there was just so extreme and it's this this typical words that are thrown out right, people who are undiagnosed ADHD and everyone got realizes that they get diagnosed ago, oh, my God, but in my school reports, I was told I was lazy, I just didn't try hard enough. Or I should just pay attention more. I mean, those very typical phrases, but for sign me like that's, it's sort of like the common narrative was often, you know, just you failed school and all that, but I don't know me and quite a lot of women. Not all like I know, you know, one of my own employees. My company, for example, was diagnosed hyperactive ADHD, she really struggled in school, and only really got a marking unit. So like, that's why I really want to stress it's important to have those different stories. Because like, Yeah, what's common is these symptoms, and, you know, in sort of the challenges is simple. But the situations that happen, the growing up process, it's very key, we have to be very careful about stereotyping too much of it, because yeah, everyone's experience is different.

What's the prevalence of a DD or ADHD in the population

in Australia, and it was a very significant report that was put out by Deloitte, economics 2019, it said that, based on their very thorough analysis, about at least 800,000, Australians have ADHD. And this was based on scientific research. And again, I still strongly believe that's an underestimate. I think it's at least 500,000 Plus, we're definitely over the age of 18. You know, sort of kind of really, it's the first proper economic, statistical analysis of ADHD in Australia, which is remarkable. But most Global Studies have put the prevalence in percentage terms between two to 4%. Right off the population basically, again, it's still under estimate properly. But

yeah, honestly, because like you know, the way we have systems set up let's I've school you guys want me to do three years union? Do you do your rounds for six months in your in there? Like, it just seems to me that they're lacking this sort of component of, let's say, neuro, neuro diverse sort of awareness, like, you know, for me, I'm learning a lot right now talking to you, but like, just having a neuro diversity of training. Obviously, we talk with free resources and stuff like this with teachers and with, I think it would help a lot more people and it would save a lot of emotional heartache for people growing up or just in their adulthood thinking they may be, let's say stupid away when they're not that it's don't have the correct diagnosis or being aware that that's a possibility for

100%. Yeah, I think, you know, it's, and I think it's very interesting, right is because I started in the adult workplace space, but there's just so much potential to really explore kind of that high school and private school agent Teachers Training, I suppose, because I've in terms of education, I've only focused on giving talks to, you know, corporates and businesses and stuff, just as a lunch and learn staffing to kind of go what, like, basically, this podcast episode really is like, what is neurodiversity? And going through that stuff, and but also equipping them with, you know, practical strategies that have worked for other businesses who've employed autistic and ADHD, for example, or, you know, orders even from my own lived experience. So combining the best of both worlds, and also like the scientific research on that for education, but yeah, when it comes to schools, and teachers and all of that, like there is also research there, and there's that but it's still really, really, really early days, which is really remarkable considering that, you know, like ADHD and autism, clearly a more diagnosed in kids. Not enough. You felt sort of feel like that should have been more advanced by now, but it's not. It's sort of the work. It started. With the workplace first in a way, but it's just been Tandon, right? So do you can't speak of one Brit out the other, you have to kind of go through the whole sort of life cycle as flows of education to employment, which is sort of kind of where where I am with narratives, media is how you've joined the dots there. I started in the workplace because that was just the natural starting point. But just funny, right? Because I always kind of go well, teaching was always kind of my calling, I suppose in life, but I just did not see myself as a high school teacher at the time, it was like, I could not stay, I would not stand the admin of paperwork, the coding a teacher was like, No, I could not do that. So the next best thing is to be an entrepreneur.

Yeah, this thing like, you know, the way they would do uni, I would not imagine there would be I don't know what they do from a, from a behavioral type of thing. But I would not imagine that the currently that the way it's structured would have the Steven mentioned about it, you know, might be how do you handle a bad kid or whatever. But there would be nothing about well, this. This is what you might want to run through the heavy? do you navigate to this, this this or things like that? I think you can make a lot happier workplace for everyone. If this sort of stuff could be implemented, let's say to teaching level education level, at least

100%? Yeah, there's just so much work to be done. And I think it's, you know, it's it is positive. There's lots of people speaking up now. But I think for me, that's why I always kind of say this business goes back to like, first principles of what is the real problem stopping people for employment or getting a good education, it really goes back to the stigma and bias and prejudice and stereotypes of that's often reinforced by media. And so you have to kind of challenge that by producing media that is also going to challenge that and represent show representative stories of lots of people who go through the same thing, because then you realize, Oh, you're not alone, I suppose for people who really feel like they are. But also it's to broaden the minds of lots of people who may have only one image or one idea of what it is and the best what it is. And it's actually scientifically proven. It's storytelling is the best way to sort of change people's minds in a sense, and also showing those different representations that directly challenge a stereotype is also very effective.

I think it's great. Yeah, absolutely. Stories is the best way generally, to get through to people with this sort of stuff. Now we're going to talk about the they want to talk about autism real quickly as well. So people think they know what autism I know, think they know the word I don't think actually know really what the condition is, they might have a relation, as you said earlier that has I've actually got a cousin who's got it. So but maybe don't explain a bit what is what is autism, what is it to you misconceptions about it? Just to give a general overview? Sure. Yeah.

I mean, autism is it's an interesting one, right? So for me, it's been kind, it's about the struggles to understand social cues, it's sort of I know, DSM kind of goes in, then that repetitive behavior, and that's a social cues, maybe the sensory sensitivity is, is one factor, etc. But I think it is just sort of that navigating that social environment is sort of that biggest challenge for me. And it's sort of typical that so I do not. So formal skills, sort of like I we can pretend and read cues, so it doesn't come naturally to us. So that's a really big thing. And as well, even to this day, I think sometimes I still find it, I'm like two seconds behind reading on sarcasm as well. There's kind of like things as well, I suppose that is the biggest challenge, right is sort of also a lot to do the executive function. For me, you know, certain things, as I mentioned, is a struggle to do over others, there is a lot of overlap. If it wasn't ADHD, I fine. But for autism, for me is just kind of really, for me about that social sort of challenges of, which is hard to believe, because the ADHD does sort of help with that in the in overcoming some of that, but in some in a lot of day to day situations, personal situations, you know, like, dating all that, like, it's just kind of been a huge barrier, right? It's not knowing the cues, not understanding cues, perhaps making inappropriate comments, or whatever it is, I'm just not reading the social cues, I'm not really I'm not really pick up the social matters or whatever, to sort of continue that conversation more tactful way serve just lots of misunderstandings, for me, which has been really deeply frustrating. And in, you know, and that's sort of, you know, I think I speak quite a lot from that female perspective, because obviously, then or autism, boys can present them the more rigid, stereotypical, they have not always I do not know, a lot of men who don't do that. It just kind of been like me, actually. But um, autism, unfortunately, like ADHD is a it's a spectrum for a reason, like it does. But it does, it's usually that social struggle is usually the core of it, I find, and then everyone sort of has Yeah, the behavior, repetitive behaviors and other ways to stimming. So the sensory thing is a big one. Yeah, so that's kind of how I sort of define it.

So after you got your diagnosis at 25 Okay, imagine would have been a massive relief and you would have made a lot of sense. So what did what did you do next? Was it something like you get on like, is this something How do you like let's say address it or you trade? I'm not really sure about that. So can maybe explain a bit about that?

Yeah. So I mean autism, right? It's sort of that's it right. Unlike ADHD, there's no like medication per se, which is probably good because there's a lot of terrible sort of, you know, anti vaxxers and people out there, and all these crazy cures like no do not. Yes. It's it's like, there's a reason why would we consider this autism has existed for hundreds 1000s?

Yeah, well, I was gonna say eczema is one to say, but what do you think about that? How does that annoy that whole anti vaccine about the bloody vaccines and linking it to autism?

Well, I think it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's an unfortunate case study of how a misreporting or misrepresentation of a so called scientific study done in the 90s somehow continues to hold root in today's society as some kind of proof that vaccines cause autism, even though it's been thoroughly debunked. But there you go, once a bad idea takes root. That's crazy, isn't it?

It's, it's so frustrating. It's unbelievable, because, um, yeah, in my role, we have a, our, my boss is pretty well known. And we posted a picture of him getting a vaccine. And it was a bad idea on Twitter, Twitter's probably the worst place to post that, and I couldn't believe some of the comments we're getting out of it. It's just, it's just the standing.

And it's just, I think it just goes to the root of like autism being that spectrum. Because I think January during the qualify, a lot of people who may have kids with autism, and other intellectual disability child has all that, and that can be really hard to handle. And so it's sort of like if it feels like if, if you're stuck with that sort of terrible little bar, but then it's like, well, but also like, there is a quite a big portion of the spectrum that are able to function fine with just additional supports and all that, like support it just all, it just all depends, like, that's what I mean. So once it's just gets fixated on that one portion of the spectrum, then that you think that's all of it, go No, no, no, you have to challenge yourself all the time. Go, no, it's all of it. So yeah, with the, you know, anti vaxxers. And being it's sort of like, that's, it's so hard to keep, you have to keep challenging it. That's it, right? Because people are afraid of what they do not know. And you have to keep putting out narratives to continually challenge that and show them that. It's not the case, you know, so that's, yeah, that's what that's how I feel about it.

You know, I'm glad I'm glad you mentioned I sort of thing in the back of my head. And I'm, I can imagine how to be quite, quite annoying. Now, let's talk about what you did regarding your, your business. So I find this, I love this, a lot of people who take a passion, and then they make it into and they make themselves into a business setup is no don't put words in your mouth. But I presume that's what you've done, you're taking a passionate where there's a lack of content, in this area, lack of resources, I'm going to do something about it, and then you've actually monetize that or made into a business, which is even more impressive. So maybe we'll talk about how that journey itself or how you've done that. Sure, yeah.

So so it's so it's kind of funny, right? Because it's like, it's sort of it's always, it's always gonna, how do you distill a story with many complex moving parts into one single narrative, right? And so for me, it was it's sort of Yes, there was the story mentioned earlier in the podcast, right, which is about, yeah, how I sort of really drawn from that personal experience and lived experience and I guess, true to the name of this webcast, right? It's the lived experience that really drives kind of how I've approached not developing the business and the product itself. Because I just believe that the stet stories of lived experiences is what will help people, you know, gain strategies and understand, you know, how to relate to people, I suppose, and, and how to help them, I suppose, you know, you feel compelled to act after a really good story. You know, like, that's, that's a good story may compel people to help in ways that you never know. And that's, but it's important to know how to produce those types of stories. And the journalism background I have is what I had was what sort of helps me with that understanding. So in the marketing aspect of me working in law firms, where it's about translating difficult to understand information for the average person to that, that and how to distribute it in different channels is also really important part of it, because you can't produce something like I always like to say you've like you've wasted your money, if you just focus on producing stuff that you have no strategy to distribute the content. Like, I feel like if I was a journalist, and I never thought about that, I'll be fired from it. So that's why we thought that was it. So that's that contradict that combination of, yes, my lived experience, my passion in solving a problem that that was I thought needed to be solved, I've solved for myself, I solve it for lots of people. And, and just knowing how to get that out to a mass audience, often through organic sort of methods. Because word of mouth is always the best sort of way to, to kind of, you know, spread the word about the business and get people through. And then yeah, for me, it's just been a really big journey from you know, I guess I don't know that I guess that's the thing. It's sort of like pendulums. And Meteor is one of the toughest places to monetize. But it was understand it was having to take a bit of a conceptual link to go Okay, like, that's it. It's if everyone keeps saying to me, we all came to this resource library to learn about neurodiversity to learn from stories to learn from resources. Then I go, Okay, so maybe the next step up is providing education type products, learning products for, you know, for specific groups, so corporates or schools or hold that through talking and consulting all that. And so that's kind of how I'm trying to join the dots, you know, for joining the dots, at least right now on monetizing the business, because it's sort of challenging to monetize just on the journalism alone. And it's, it is about connecting the dots with well, education people are usually willing to pay for for certain groups. And I think that's why focus on professionals that that missing middle group that I like to talk about us, because we usually do have that, you know, disposable income to afford these upgrades to our, you know, sort of, you know, we will pay for education, we will pay for continuing development. And for me that is crucial to kind of hopefully the biggest social mission of the business, which is to get information out to anybody, regardless of the income level, as long as there's a core group of people who are going to help to, you know, support it, I suppose, for their own needs. So that's kind of how I've sort of thought about the development, the business and to be honest, it's still ongoing, it's always an iterative process.

Now, what's your feedback been from, from people in regards to resources, any good stories, you can share that someone's read it and it's helped them or what some, something, some good sort of stuff that's come out of it,

I had my very first so with my so with my business, it says, like resource library, you can join as a free member, I kind of go, it's like getting a library membership, your local library, and then there's an upgrade for $99 for those learning resources. So the story wanted to share on that was my first pro member, that's what we call those members signed up. And she had no, she had no connection to the business at all. She found it through Google. And so that's it, lots of people find my business by the organic search through the articles, I put out that

rank on SEO, Search Engine Optimization.

It's some it's it seems unsexy compared to other paid marketing things, but it is Seo. And yeah, she just stumbled across it, read it, one signed up for free and then realized she could upgrade and then she upgraded. But it was because at the time she was in a really, really sort of dog situation in a workplace where she was felt like she was being discriminated against discriminated against because of the ADHD, you know, sort of getting the whole performance management, treatment and all that. And she had read our ADHD rights at work legal guide, of which I had consulted with her expert employment lawyer to produce this guide. And we've also illustrated it with pictures, as well as your rights to make it more accessible, because you know, it's sort of even the most simplest language, it can be very daunting to understand your rights on a supporting pictures. So with this guide, she, you know, really understood what to do in that situation, and was able to, you know, eventually escaped that workplace and just felt empowered in terms of her her rights and what to do, because that's it, when you're in that situation, you don't want to do anything, lawyers are really expensive. That's kind of where information like this especially written by someone, you know, like me and others who have collaborated on it. Really, that's it and that that story for me is always just felt like the right, exactly the reason I created this business is because it's like, yeah, it that information that expertise, the evidence faces kind of really does can really make a huge difference in your workplace, your rights, and just who you are as a person. So yes,

it's great to have that when so early on as well being your first person as well to have that when just the rain force. I don't know where you go. Yeah. But I'm gonna say as well, what's the feedback from you? You've mentioned corporates before do you do you do talks for businesses and stuff like that? So how did how does that sort of come about? Did they fight? Like, did you get recommended? Or do they had people in the workplace who might have ADHD or something that would come aware of or how does that sort of normally go? Well,

I think my favorite story on this one, and I can say it, as well, because they posted they posted about it on LinkedIn is the Sydney Opera House, the Sydney Opera House. Sounds mean, believe it or not, they found me via a YouTube video of an interview I did back in June, June 2020, last year when I hadn't so I should say the resource level was only launched in August 2020, late last year. And so the Sydney Opera House happened, one of their staff happened to find this video and pass it on to the DNI staff and said they loved it so much that, that they came to me and said, You know what, we've been talking about neurodiversity. And we know we want you to share your story with our staff is a lunch and learn on neurodiversity at work. And so that's kind of what I did in terms of giving that talk. And you know, the feedback from that was it was really informative and great. And so I think from those from that experience, right, that sort of helped me with another organization who also contacted me to do that. And I suppose that's kind of where I was like, I sort of didn't consciously go out to create this product, per se it was because people was I really Because because of the journalism because of the content you produce, I basically made myself and authority that's worthy of doing speaking education gigs. And so that's how I evolved now to sort of have more formalized offering, which are now reached out to others. And I suppose that's it, it comes from when Yeah, when it comes to feedback from corporates, it's sort of organization, it's comes from, they they're aware of, you know, curious, like yourself, like, neurodiversity is a thing. And we should probably know about it, and what do we do and, and send the messages in these talks, I suppose I kind of go, you've already have neurodivergent people in your organization already, you just don't know about it. So it isn't your interest to learn about this, because you might actually improving productivity, you know, of your organization, almost like you know, in a few months or overnight, just by knowing, you know, these simple strategies, and people may not need to feel like they have to disclose or show that, but it will be very appreciative of it. And then maybe they might want to do that, because just like LGBTI, and woman and other sort of identities, people want to be loud and proud about who they are, they want to be their authentic self in the workplace. So that's kind of that's kind of where the feedback has been right from organisations who are proactively sort of understanding that this is something that matters, you know, not only from their authentic workplace, authentic self kind of thing, but also like, it can actually help them instance, in general,

when when sort of situation. And based on the start, that's this, the statue said before, it's the adoptive killer has people in the workplace with just based on data, they're going to have it. And I think, as you said, it's, I think it's what you said today was really, really, I think, important was the timeline, you know, 2030 years behind where mental health was in regards to stigma, I think, you know, it's, it's sort of it will get to the stage eventually, and someone's proud to say that I've got autism or ADHD, you know, there's the prades let people know and educate people, whereas mental health 2030 years ago, there'd be no way you get people with bipolar saying to people I've got bipolar disorder, bipolar is whereas now they're probably more, there's a lot more awareness around that, and they will do that.

Yeah, 100%, you know, I think that's kind of like, and also, that's the reason for why I did really, really well in history in school is because I also like to look at the history of social movements in general seeing how women's rights LGBTI how, you know, mental health and all of that progress. And it always really starts from huge Dark Ages, where there's a lack of inflammation, and then there's always either a big celebrity or some kind of big, you know, prominent figure push through the media that always then starts cracking the conversation, so then it becomes a reported thing, and then there's always then some kind of, you know, push by, you know, inside media ranks where people who are, have that lived experience starts being able to report on that or be or they're more conscious of reaching out to those under the business and make that a priority. And then that's why I kind of made Meteor sort of awareness and, and quality journalism, big focus my business because I go, you can see in history, that it's a huge contributing force to why people then start caring about, you know, all sorts of support programs, where it's women are LGBTI, you know, all the things that we see today, like, you know, this month is Pride Month, you know, for LGBTI for lots of organizations and bought a rainbow. Is there any? Yeah, it's sort of like, it just starts with, you know, just people one yes, there's, there's a huge social activism kind of power people really speak on there's a huge part of neurodiversity, but then it's just sharing the stories and prominent individuals who share those stories, as well, that just really gets things going. But it takes years. So yeah, as you mentioned, it took 1020 years from mental health to get to where it is today.

Yeah, there's still a long way to go, you know, and then, like everything else, but I was gonna say, Is there anyone of prominence who has sort of done that already for let's say neuro, neuro, the neuro diverse perversion, sorry, cause is there sort of anyone that should or that you've seen cuz I'm so I thought for me, it's like awareness yet? Because like, when you learned ice ages, was there no more westerns because that just had about how prevalent it is. So who do you Who do you see that champion that or how do you see that sort of awareness being raised?

That is very interesting, right? Because I would say what in the in this time room recording, right? Sort of like the most prominent one recently, Elon Musk, he was like saying, I must be the first aspect is not like,

my my boss, is the head founder of Jim's mowing, and he's, he's self proclaimed says his wife thinks is good, I suppose. But he doesn't, but I reckon he does. So it's,

yeah, absolutely. Right. And like, you know, some people even such as Bill Gates may have it but also do you know, but Elon Musk has come out, you know, strongly on that. Like, there's, there's that's, that's what I mean, like in terms of neurodiversity, like in Australia, like Hannah Gatsby do comedian has spoken a lot about autism and kind of really shining that light on that neurodiversity perspective, right that she doesn't think it's a problem. It's just part of I think she has autism ADHD actually, but like, you know, that's her last show talked a lot about that, you know, putting that really square in front In that sort of cycle, but also, thanks to social media and like, you know, things like Tick Tock and stuff. You know, there are people like Chloe Hayden, you know, young autistic woman who really finds an entertaining way to educate people, huge audiences about autism. You know, so I guess it's funny, right, Cisco, is there one champion or one sort of thing? Well, I think kind of consistent with the the world that we're in today of the media, well, there's no sort of one person or one thing that could represent all it's all these different figures that kind of step in, sort of contravene their own way to lead the neurodiversity movement. In a way, it's just kind of depends on how prominent they are, I suppose many probably can't get any more prominent Elon Musk in this case.

Yeah. And that's quite interesting. Do you think I met earlier you said obviously, there's they're all separate conditions, they need different things. But do you think that needs to sort of almost, as you said, come under that one banner of and that's what needs to be awareness of raise the raise that said the term neuro diverse as opposed to let's say, autism and ADHD, individual things? Or how just how would you think of that?

Yeah, actually, it's a good good point where you bring up there, right, because even terminologies always interesting, right? So it's sort of like neuro diverse. What is neurodiversity? sthira divergent. Now, I'm probably a bit of a grammatical nerd. I'm like neurodiverse, in itself isn't like some kind of noun or whatever. It's sort of if you want to say neurodiversity, say neuro diverse population or something like that, right? And neurodivergent is sort of maybe the better word to describe people. But the truth, the truth is people sometimes actually just prefer to use neurodiverse. For I didn't hear a diversion. So I've kind of just accepted, it's too changeable. And so so I just wanted to make that point. Because I know terminology can be kind of confusing at first, I understand. I think I'm sorry, just question. What was your question? Again,

I was just sort of saying like, for the awareness cause itself close look at an example. Right? So let's say with beyondblue, and stuff, these 10 mental health gets gets with mental health. But apparently mental health has to have schizophrenia, bipolar, depression, anxiety, which probably take all the attention and you have all these other conditions as well. BPD. But the mental health Look, there's sort of a couple of things. So I'm just sort of thinking with this, like, between ADHD, autism, and there's obviously other things as well, which would be neuro diverse, there's a need to sort of unify, let's say, for a brand new or an awareness point of view under that term, you know, I'd have neuro diverse for some people to sort of go, Hey, alright, well, that neuro diverse means can mean this, this, this, this, this, just to sort of get more as opposed to having individual causes having to be championed, or

Yes, I believe so. And that's because there's a very important point that I wanted to definitely make on that point is because people like me are diagnosed with multiple conditions. It's not just one but unfortunately, like when we read about neuro diversity hiring programs, for example, they actually only just refer to autism. It's very misleading, right? And you kind of go actually, you know, the research say, statistically up to 30 to 50% of people who have autism may also have ADHD. So you kind of go You can't really say, um, does autistic person Well, you've either ADHD and you go, it's a bit of a mouthful to say autism, ADHD, dyspraxia, you can want to say neurodivergent, right? I kind of see it, like, it's a bit like LGBTI, sort of like the collective term for you know, whether you're bisexual, gay, or whatever I go. Okay, that's why I think neurodiversity is a nice collective term and also neuro diversity. In the same way that LGBT IQ a class, you know, that whole acronym, the same thing, it's sort of like, you probably want to have an umbrella term for that diversity of conditions or like diversity of sexualities, as well. So I feel like that's, that's, that's, I think it's important to still have that uniting on the data, because I just think statistically, lots of people fall in the category of having those multiple conditions, but feeling like they have to, like kind of choose within the conditions, and there's just that siloing effect, which is what actually hinders progress in the space for recognition rather than enhances it. Yeah. So I actually find it a personal bugbear To be honest, because it's like, you know, it's like, it's just one thing, but the others. So it's, it's often it's just a collection of all of them. Sure.

Now, we've been gone for nearly an hour, then say, I've gone for 20 minutes more than what I say we did. But thank you very much for joining Rachel. So if anyone wants to learn more about what you do, and your and your, and the resources, where can I go? And where can I find you?

Yeah, for sure. So the websites, you know, WW, neurodiversity. media.com, you can join for free, there's a Join button the page to just get unlock the full library of resources yet in non social media, which is neurodiversity media, really, so um, just search for that, and you'll find all the handles.

Awesome. Thanks for that. Rachel is really, really interesting. And now I've got a cousin with autism. I've learned a lot. And I just, yeah, I can't wait, hopefully, the awareness, let's say this, this stigma sort of gets to where, you know, normal people start coming out and start, you know, it's that same things the same way they have with mental health, and sort of progressive to sort of that sort of level of awareness. So

yeah, no, thank you so much. I really appreciate this chat. It's been great.

No, thanks. Thanks to Rachel for sharing her story and providing some great insights into autism, ADHD and what she does in regards to trying to raise awareness about new people, especially in the workplace as well. To learn more about Rachel visit neuro diversity media.com to view all their resources and learn more. If you liked this episode, please leave a review online and share with someone who might find this interesting because the support does mean a lot to me, as always, by the lived experience online and on YouTube as well, just trying to get those subscribers up to 100 doesn't sound like much. But if I get to 100 subs, I can change it to actually be a daily experience as the end of the URL there. So until next time, we'll copy so thanks for your support of the show.