Joel Kleber: 0:00

Hey guys, this is Joel Kleber and welcome to the very first edition of the lived experience, which is a renamed from authentic convos podcast, which we'll do another video telling you about that at another stage. here with me today is my special guest has come out in his cold night in Melbourne, which is Matthew one. Now I like it out here. This is beautiful. Can I say where we are? We're at Jim's

Matthew Wong: 0:18

headquarters everyone. And it's the most stunning I mean, because it's a conference venue as well.

Joel Kleber: 0:22

It is yes, I love it. It's huge. It's a massive area, and it's after hours as well. So that's why it's after hours. But it's a massive venue. It's a I used to be a university campus, I'm pretty certain Yeah. And now here's all the franchisees and that sort of stuff, and it's got a lovely food, it was common center as well to you let me sit in Jim's chair in his office, we take his car for a drive, it's great. You're caught because he's got an exercise ball in his office. But we'll get into so just be brief in a brief introduction. So Matthew Wang is a lot of things, a lot of really good things. I'm going to read a little bio in a minute, but he's a founder of a thing more recently called discernible, which is a content platform, content organization, whatever you want to call it. You've got podcast, you got videos, how would you best describe your your channel in your own words?

Matthew Wong: 1:04

what it is now, I guess we know went a long journey to get here. But now it's become like this platform where it's not all about me. I'm there, obviously. But I've got other experts who appear my guests like you've got me on today. We really are built on the people that come on so includes the presenters like Damien curry, he does this show called the other side, Australia. We've got Josh and other guy I've got Yeah. So I don't know, I don't really know what we're doing set. We're trying to have better conversations. And I think the more broad kind of guessed this, I can have one that will change the identity of who discernible is. So I'm just trying to maintain just the very core kind of values of who we are. And then beyond that, I don't know what we're going to become.

Joel Kleber: 1:42

So Matt will will give other details and links at the end. And but make sure if you are watching this look them up straightaway as well. If not hang around for the rest of this. But I want to touch on Bose will tell you before that you were a pilot, you've been in medicine, you've done law, you've sold multiple businesses, and you're only 34 I think still aren't you? Yeah, only 3436 3435 you 35 and you've done all these things before 35 of them. I said what the hell am I doing? But you've been ultra high achieving. Now the reason why I've had you answer this is because it's called about lived experience and sharing with experiences mental health and things like that. So you had all these, you're such a Hulk ultimate high achiever. And this conversation happened when I was on yours when I was on your show. And you got to a point where you just weren't, you weren't feeling it. You went feeling life. And you decided to make a change and maybe don't talk to talk about that sort of situation.

Matthew Wong: 2:32

Well, you call me a high achiever, but I'm not in it means you compare it to Elon Musk is a high achiever. Right? He's raised the bar. I'm a lazy, lazy donkey in comparison. But he didn't bring up the LMS because he said something interesting on Rogan, right? His mind is always inventing things and Rogan gets enamored by Wow, every time you're looking at stuff, you think of a new way to do things. That's amazing that your mind just keeps coming up with solutions like a savant everywhere you look. And aliens face goes steely. And he looks at Joe and says, Yeah, but Joe, what if you can't turn it off. And it's just this haunting moment, where you realize that it is not something to be sort of lusting after to become an Elon Musk, or my brother is slightly different to me, I don't ever want him to lust into my achievements, you know, he's more musical. And I'm more academic, because everything comes with the trade off. And that was part of what you're kind of getting to is me achieving this stuff is more, in my view, a bit of a pathology, like, I get really not just bored, but I get a real lack of purpose. When I achieve something. I'm like, what was the point of it, and I get this existential angst, I move on to something else. And so I guess where you're taking us in the stories is to when that card finally came to a head, in 2000, and whatever it was 1617 getting everything I thought I wanted in life house, or the white picket fence and a fountain and a nice car and wife, a kid newborn and then found myself wanting to end it all, to put making plans down in the storage underneath our house, how to how to do it, and disappear.

Joel Kleber: 4:14

That's pretty deep stuff. And thanks for sharing it a lot. A lot of people wouldn't. So you're at 31 years old, you get to that point, it's quite my say it's concerning, but just shows you how mental illness just affects everyone. You look on the outside, you see a high achiever like yourself, as you said, You got the family, you got the house, you've got the car, you got the financial success, and you just still felt filled, empty. So how long was that period? So what happened during that dark period, a dark period. So what happened?

Matthew Wong: 4:37

I was very open with my wife about it. Yeah. And that probably really saved me to be able to talk to your partner about suicidal thoughts. It's hard to I mean, you don't just come out and say Hi, honey, you want to kill myself. That's be rough. But gradually over time, I shared my angst about purpose and I don't know what I'm doing. And I've never been more depressed than when I'd sold a couple of businesses and now sitting at home raising my first child, she was like three to six months old money in the bank, and we're just living off savings. And they've been so depressed. And so I just, you know, was open with her about what I was struggling with. And eventually it became full on, hey, I'm thinking about killing myself. Because telling her this, that's not not easy for your partner to hear

Joel Kleber: 5:17

was the reaction to that when you when you said that

Matthew Wong: 5:20

she's she's a quite a supportive person compared to even compared to other wives of my friends who are supportive. My wife is particularly supportive. And she didn't break down or anything, which would have been okay. But she, she wanted to let me talk it out. And that was huge. Because imagine you're having these thoughts. Quite, I think quite evil thoughts in the sense that you're telling the wife who's got a little newborn that you want to abandon them? That's harsh, man. So I would not blame her if she was angry. Like, I can even put me through this right now. I'm struggling with all these How can you say you want to abandon us? So yeah, she she was really supportive and talking, talking that through helped me to help me to process it without that guilt and shame, because I didn't know much about mental if you talk to people about a lot, but I assume that there'll be a lot of shame around it. People still

Joel Kleber: 6:15

talk about why that's why people don't get any help. And then they are unfortunately going, you know, do things they probably shouldn't if they just went and talk to someone, it's really hard. I have this as downs a question, actually. Because you've got these thoughts, right. And you acted on where you actually spoke about it. Whereas a lot of people don't they internalize it for six months for a year and then and whatever. So you're able to you knew what you felt and you spoke to someone which is, which is I think the main key. Now once you have spoken a sound, what after that? What steps did you then then you didn't take you've had this conversation? Was this something where you're going to get professional help?

Matthew Wong: 6:45

Well, some people don't have that wife that I had, right? Yeah. So they should get professional. But you're you're also laying it out. Like I took some steps to get out of it. I don't feel like that's what happened. Right? I feel like I was rescued out of it, rather than I'm clawed my way out. Okay, I feel lucky to be here. I don't feel like I conquered it. And when

Joel Kleber: 7:02

you say rescue, what do you mean? Just my overall experience, I

Matthew Wong: 7:05

feel like I was pulled out of it. Rather than I cry, I fought my way out of it. I feel not passive. I feel like a beneficiary of it.

Joel Kleber: 7:15

Right? Because Because the reason why I had that I actually did have the steps down in here written down because the steps there are steps to get where were you four years ago, I'm on a mile, and I'm very logical, you know, it's going to be it's going to be stiff. It's gonna be sad, but because I'm just trying to think because you've gone and you've got to the success, and a lot of people are like that, and then you've gone there's needs to be more there's this feeling about it. And as a result of them go want to do this. So and that in that timing, as you said, You've got your pull out of it. What pulled you out of it or what helps you

Matthew Wong: 7:44

get out or pull me out. So this is this is start should have Google is for Kenyan is this guy called ratio Spafford. Right? This guy owns a bunch of property in Chicago. This is 100 couple 100 years ago. And he he This is great fire in Chicago, real famous with a whole city burns down. So he loses all this property. And they decide to go over to the UK on the ship with his daughter's four daughters and his wife, but he has to deal with some business closing up stuff. So he sends the mom and the daughters ahead. He stays in Chicago and he's going to meet them over in the UK. The ship shipwrecks four daughters die. The mom survives. He gets a telegram and just says two words saved alone. So Horatio Spafford is like crap, you know, his daughters are dead. I got a rush to the UK, he gets on another ship. He goes across, as he's going across that place, roughly where it sank, and his four daughters died. The captain of the ship calls into the breed and says, Hey, this is roughly where it is, whatever. And he goes, he sees that he goes back to his cabin. And he writes to him is a Christian dude. He writes this hymn that says something like, when see billows roll, and whatever you've taught me to say it is well, it is well with my soul. And so this song perplex me because he's this guy in the absolute depth of just horrific stuff. And his daughter's a young like seven 910. And during that face with that tragedy, he was able to write a song is well with my soul and like How the hell did Where did you draw that from? Whatever the case that that taught me, I had to figure out how how it can be with my soul, even when it's not with my circumstances. And then I went on a journey of, I guess, a number of months, three to six months. And I finally got to the place where I was able to say to my wife who was my confidence, right? It may not be well with my job, I didn't have one. It may not be well with my purpose or meaning in life. It may not be well even with my mental health and so Solid radiation, and so on. But it is well with my soul. And I was like that is it was a real real anchor for me. And this was they pulled me out this guy's example pulled me out, where now, that stuff doesn't affect me nearly as much. Because when all the my world goes to hell around me, I've been able to find a place where Yes, may or may not be well with other things, but it's well with my soul. So I don't know how you would investigate that, I guess like Sam Harris would say are you went into a deep meditation and found your life? A Christian would say you found God. Once I feel rescued, I don't really know what happened.

Joel Kleber: 10:40

Okay, so let's say for that that point cold and peeking over that period there we've come to this realization, and then you're looking for what you want to do, or your passion or how is that where discernible came from your channel? or How did you stumble upon that? Yeah, I

Matthew Wong: 10:54

think that whole experience of, I guess, people who have lost at all like ratio Spafford, or like, I was looking at losing or dying, right? I think people who are faced with that loss, kind of get a perspective of what is important in life. And that's kind of what happened to me after, after that experience, I was much more at peace. I was much more rested. Even though my circumstances hadn't changed. I just resolved within myself that my circumstances shouldn't dictate where my soul is. And then I was making, I wanted to be helpful. So I was like, What am I good at? What do I know about what am I passionate about business, which has nothing to do with the service. And so I just made a video after video after video on business, I was just trying to help. This is something I know that helped me this is something I read, target is closing up and Kmart taking over a couple years ago, I just make a video on that I just wanted to help whoever I could all the time. And that's how to sample stuff. Now when

Joel Kleber: 11:55

you say help, so that what was the idea behind discernible. What was the first you know, the early days what what was your initial Ahmadzai strategy, but what was your you want to help people how by creating that channel?

Matthew Wong: 12:06

I think going through the the mental health stuff, and coming in on the other side, I felt like now that I'm sitting here with a lot more kind of without those issues, what do I want to do with my life? And I thought, well, I just want to be as helpful as possible. It's not real deep, shorted me really helpful. So how can I and I started doing those videos, and I chose discernable, because my name sucks. There's like a billion other websites. My name is pretty bad. I've got two daughters, at least their name is gonna disappear. That the one part. You know, it's I chose that name. And I just off I went, try and try to be helpful. And I got a great sense of satisfaction, trying to be trying to be helpful. That's

Joel Kleber: 12:52

very altruistic, though. Because remember, not many people do things. They might say they're altruistic, but they don't do things with the expectation of no return. So you literally want to start this provide content. You didn't expect it you know, you don't monetize anything, you do anything like that you

Matthew Wong: 13:06

just want to do but that's not fit. Like you have to monetize adventure. I haven't now, but I will have to write Yeah, sure. So you can't judge platforms for monetizing, of course you have to.

Joel Kleber: 13:14

But your initial goal was purely altruistic, there was no real motive behind in regards to get what you get back out of it or anything like that was that

Matthew Wong: 13:21

if I could prefer I haven't monetized at this point. If I could not monetize ever I would that would be great. However, you know, I'll run out of money. Yeah, I started off just wanting to help people. But I think I think a lot of I mean, of course, we all like success. You know, I'm quite chuffed that you invited me on this show. That's nice. Makes me feel good. Like I've done something worthwhile with discern over these last six months. But if that becomes the goal, you end up with, you know, I won't name any names, you see a lot of other pages who often started at the same time and sizes me or even a bit bigger. And now that we're overtaking them, one of the reasons there are obviously many myriad reasons, but one of the reasons I think is quite transparent the motivations of some of those pages, they're trying to achieve fame, or fortune lists and fortune I find people are more often trying to achieve influence and fame. Yeah. So I think that that's what happens. I think what, what will happen is I know this is a bit see now I'm not being humble at all, but I think our our page will, will grow. It's like 21,000 followers now. Right? But I think we have no problem going to 60,000 100,000 200,000 because everything I do in the house I have on like Josh and Damien and the staff I have now that I pay out of savings, they they have the same motivation. They're just trying to help people it doesn't matter whether this gets good ratings or not. We're still gonna do it. And I think in the long run, that's why we'll be big.

Joel Kleber: 14:46

And what was the so obviously you want to check the name Cindy good but discern what how'd you stumble upon calling it that? Oh, I

Matthew Wong: 14:53

was with my brother in September 2019. I think it was and we're just talking about names and

Joel Kleber: 14:59

neck Can we I mean, that's our goal. We're

Matthew Wong: 15:01

trying to discern what is good, what is real, what is not how to be better humans? I mean, I've got what are called a wisdom if I could, but that's such a lame name as well. She's trying to be cooler than the wisdom show. Yeah. So that's what we're looking for. We're looking for wisdom.

Joel Kleber: 15:16

So I was gonna say, so looking for wisdom, but you put out there. So if someone came to your page now, would you think they would think you've got a specific specific political ideology or anything like that when they look at your content? Oh, yeah. So do you best describe to someone for the first time you may be watching? Oh, okay. Let's say Look at that. I know, I know what your goal is. And I sort of know that he answered your question, probably your baby, as anyone, you know, please patch into Google, obviously Facebook page, check it out. But how would you best describe to a first time person

Matthew Wong: 15:41

if you're looking for a platform that is not afraid of opinions and opposing views, that would be us. So if you're the type of person who wants to be reinforced in your views, on the left or the right, or up or down or whatever, there are plenty of pages out there for you, but my page will often have have, so give me an example. I had this guy on. He was a he had a had a problem with with the lockdowns or vaccinations or something I can't remember, which is great. I'll hear him out. But the the the audience was like, yeah, finally the risks of health and blah, blah, blah. I was like, This is scary to me, because they're all piling onto one narrative. So I deliberately went out and interviewed Professor Nicolette petrowski. He's a creator of vaccines. in Adelaide, he's created one called COVID-19, which looks very promising. And deliberately had him on to kind of poke the bear and say, That's not what dissembles about. Then I had him on and then I had another doctor on who was a bit more skeptical. And then I've since had a guy from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, like I'm trying to stir the pot.

Joel Kleber: 16:44

Can I do that? Yeah,

Matthew Wong: 16:46

I'm trying to stir the pot, because I will not allow a platform to become one track.

Joel Kleber: 16:50

And that's why once you let's want to ask you that because anybody who would look at I don't want them to think that you would, that's a certain way you have both sides of all the time and it's fair, it's fair to you try it, but it's very refreshing that if you go to the page, you will you will have someone who's on that position or that position and then and then how do you find your fan base goes with that sort of stuff? How do they not well, because the question I had here was basically what do you Why do you think people anyone listening to people they want to agree with because that gets boring? I think it get boring, but there is a sense when you do hear someone to be a podcast or whenever an opposing view, get almost like a feeling in your gut where you threaten your security. Self rising. floss, I get it too. Yeah. Okay, so why do you Why do you think people or how do we go about your child's trying to change their behavior? Because I think the progress we made in a lot of this stuff that's happening now if you have people from both other sides, you sit down and go, I can listen to that side now on yelling at each other, but I can consume a bit of content from them and hear that side out. Yeah. Whereas at the moment, it seems like everyone just goes I follow this Yeah. And that's it. I follow this and yeah, but whereas if you're you've created something where you've got both things so how you find the reaction to that with your with your family? Well,

Matthew Wong: 17:53

first of all, I'm trying to an unfailing in some respects, because the right wing will come on my show far more easy. So for example, I have a million liberal MPs and Jim Penman, and they sort of come on my show. But it's really hard to get the greens on and labor on and cars and I invite them all. And then in terms of getting hosts like I've got Damien Curie, who's a former ABC journalist and a PR expert, he is right of center he calls himself right wing now sensible right like he's what always would have thought 1520 years ago but I don't have that left host if you know anyone let me know I'm trying to find someone to balance

Joel Kleber: 18:37

yeah that's it out well that was the reason why I actually because anyone because these pages are that you know a lot of them online a lot of ones in America right who have just got all that content with his with yours. Yours is different. You have opposing views. You have both sides and it's quite interesting because no one no one really does it from what I what I've seen was not good, man. It doesn't make it doesn't make sense doesn't monetize to make sense. Really ben shapiro

Matthew Wong: 18:58

daily wire and the young turks right and left. Yeah, I mean, there are other examples, but they that's the best way to do this.

Joel Kleber: 19:04

What I'm doing doesn't make sense you're doing a bit of doesn't make sense,

Matthew Wong: 19:07

because I'm only gonna attract the people who are comfortable with what do you call it when you got two ideas in your head that anyway, incongruity Anyway, when you've got a dissonance, cognitive dissonance is hard, because I have a guest on who prosecutes one opinion. And I'm like, I have a guest. Opposite mic here. No, no crap, I've got these two opinions in my head that are quite valid. It's a very uncomfortable place to be. So I'm only going to attract those people who like being in that position. And there are some but it's a minority part of my audience. A lot of audiences people who are strongly for the one guests I had on strong for another guest add on. So I have a real problem on my hands right now, which I haven't sorted out.

Joel Kleber: 19:48

What do you think you need to do?

Matthew Wong: 19:49

We pivot a little bit right into not strategically just what people have wanted, is trying to just tell the truth. So for example, a lot of the stuff the news reports Shall we say less than, less than then fully accurate, that there's a lot of bias. So I'll try and come out and say, Hey, no dog in the game here. You can you can vote for this guy or against this guy. I don't really care. But at least here's the truth and make a call. And on our respect, that's it. So we did this a lot with lockdowns. So I was tired of people coming out and saying, here's what happened with a lockdown site. No, no, no, hang on, hang on lock downs may be awesome. But at least win that argument by telling the truth because if you win by telling a lie, whatever side you're on, when that light comes on, done, your whole premise falls apart. That's what scares me. So right now, I don't even know what that to say, say the word back vaccines. But we Greg hunt saying we need to get vaccinated. I'm like, Great, let's get vaccinated. Then he says, even when we're vaccinated, we want to open up and like, hang on, you said, if we do this, we can open up in last two weeks saying no, we can't open up even if we all get vaccinated. And Gladys berejiklian has come out and saying what the biggest she called it a quote, the biggest load of rubbish I've ever heard to her own party. So I just think we need to tell broader stories. That's all.

Joel Kleber: 21:07

Yeah. Matt, sorry to get political. No, no, no, that's fine. Because that's what I was trying to get at. Because I want to make sure that if anyone looks at your content after this, so before I go on with who you are, I don't want to think you're a certain way. Because I know that's exactly not what your channel is your channels, as is really unique. And the way that you have, you know, say vaccines is a hot topic, but you have someone who's maybe not on the side of it, you have someone who's, who works in that field, and they're all for it. And you present both sides. Just just interesting how you do that? Because you're not, you know, you're not without polarizing your fan base. I presume you get a lot of inboxes or comments or preserves afterward. And so how do you deal with that? Then you get a lot of inboxes Do you reply to them? Or how does it work?

Matthew Wong: 21:42

Do I get attacked a lot? Yeah, you know, I get attacked by most of the by the right wing? I'm not radical enough.

Joel Kleber: 21:47

Yeah. Yeah. Cuz that's interesting. So in your experience has been rattling but but is that because they're just fans of yours already. They're annoyed, you're presenting another view to them that opposes their own worldview?

Matthew Wong: 21:56

Because I didn't start with them. Now. I started with a different sort of base I came on later. Now, I think that I think that the media lies to us a bit and says that do the Overton window is now the Overton window is the acceptable limits of discussion on a political spectrum, say left and right or any spectrum if you want. So they will say you're allowed to discuss any topic, let's say lockdowns up to this point on the on that pro side and then up to this point on the against side. Anything outside of that is unacceptable. And you're not we're talking to all shut you down, whatever. And this has existed long for big tech and in the closure of accounts. Now the Overton Window moves over time. So for example, if I were to say these are hypothetical, these are not my views, if I were to say, being gay is wrong, and they should go to prison. If I said that today, like that's way outside the Overton window, even if I had the thankfully I don't have those plays. But if I had those beliefs, I couldn't say it.

Joel Kleber: 22:52

But you could say that

Matthew Wong: 22:54

50 years ago, because the Overton window has shifted, maybe for the better on that issue. So I think the Overton window has moved so far in one direction, that I'm trying to broaden the window. That's what I was trying to do. Because I really don't think that censoring people works. I think you drive them underground, you end up with Alex Jones doing his own side off the side, you end up with people going off to rumble and telegram or whatever. This is not good.

Joel Kleber: 23:17

Yeah. And I think I think it's a really important point like that's, you know, this whole, I would say I lean more left there, I'm not gonna I lean a lot more left. I'm not a more I wouldn't say, Robin, but I probably have some views, which might be similar but left left, when I seen that shutting down. Like if you think it's an idiotic idea, you don't have to, you would hope that people have enough critical thinking about him to go. That's not that's not interesting. Not right. Whereas Why do we need to force that censorship? And he knows and things like that? I just think it's going down a slippery slope. And I think this whole century when those platforms, I don't know what you think I know, you're you might be with your page, a bit wider with some of the content out there. I presume? They comments in my page. Well, maybe even your page being taken offline. Maybe?

Matthew Wong: 23:55

Of course, I'm scared of it. Yeah, for sure. So so the Game of Thrones, right. So who wrote that? George RR Martin. Yeah. He said, when you tear out a man's tongue, you don't prove him a liar. You only show the world that you see what he might say. And so I practice that with the page as well, with the comments, I leave everything up, except for threats of physical violence. It's only been like three, four people have ever had the ban across hundreds of 1000s of interactions now, millions of views and spam. You just did spamming by this by this by this, whatever. Other than that, you can get on there and talk about how rubbish I am. Or I've always got something going wrong with my shirt. Like I'm not I'm not the most polished person on camera. And I disagree. I disagree that people can watch for themselves or Polish in the sense that if I stuff up I'll say the opposite or posted for his stomach was hanging out the whole whole show because your shirt was all fat and open and I'll say to my guy, just publish it because it's more important for me to help people get it out for sure it's helpful. Who cares about my story? Now let's

Joel Kleber: 24:55

talk about your page. So your page I think I think I've started reading from some as 200,000 Victoria target video views. You're getting away roughly, roughly around that in Victoria itself. But you had a couple of really big viral pieces didn't even and this was the whole point you want to educate people that the facts Yeah. And what they take out the fact is I want to associate with that left, right, whatever you had the facts that you present it to make sure that those two pieces of viral content and people will look up as well.

Matthew Wong: 25:19

state of emergency was the first one back in August, September 2020. What was happening is in here in Victoria, the government Labor government under Dan Andrews wanted to pass an extension to the state of emergency which is which, okay, before we even argue about whether that's a good or a bad thing, and it seems the majority thinks it's a good thing. Can we at least know the facts and they weren't telling the facts. So for example, in that state emergency bill it had and then later in the omnibus bill, she mentioned that it had things in there that they were hiding, preemptive detention when you hadn't committed a crime yet, and we kind of saw that with Zoe Beulah, who was arrested for Facebook post in Ballarat.

Joel Kleber: 25:57

Yeah. Was that was that the other way to remember that went into into a home and all that sort of stuff. pregnant lady? Oh, yeah,

Matthew Wong: 26:03

that's the one she's planning a protein. And she was planning and legal are gonna be carefully. They were under stage three, because they're in regional league. They went on to stage four,

Joel Kleber: 26:11

there's some pride event she was trying to organize, wasn't it?

Matthew Wong: 26:13

It was illegal. On some level. It wasn't as illegal as if she did in Melbourne. But anyway, she hadn't happened yet. This is the point. And preemptively before that peaceful protests are mounted. She's like a hippie type dozen. hippies in the sense that she's like, let's all cuddle and love and she's not a violent press. They raided her home. And Hank, after and all of that. So anyway, I was just trying to say these are the laws coming in with the state of emergency. And if you want that Victoria, then bloody well find good vote for it. We're good. But Don't lie to me, in this case was the Labour Party, but I have no problem slamming the lips. I'm sure they lie their asses off to stop lying to us. Tell us what you're wanting us to pass. Yeah. So that that sent me a bit viral. So I was making business videos that I did that to be helpful. No one knew I was just like, Hey, we need to know the truth. Put it out. Because

Joel Kleber: 27:05

it's a great video tears that have passed simply you have to explain it. You are expired. Obviously that probably your law background, I'll get to that. But on how many of us that end up doing or how many have boarded ago.

Matthew Wong: 27:16

That night, when I put it up? It was within sort of a couple of hours. I was texting my family on a group chat saying omg omg. I can't believe it. Like it's been shared 10 times. And I said, Well, since I wrote that message and shared two more times, and I was just watching it. God said our guys just got Scott 100 likes, like that's insane. And that was, oh, we're up to 130 likes and I was doing for hours. And by the end I said I've got to go to bed. Like I can't just sit here and keep updating you guys, but now it's been shared 400 times 500

Joel Kleber: 27:48

In the end, I think it got shared like 2000 times something like that is amazing. It's an amazing number, especially on Facebook. It's if you guys mature you know it's very Yeah,

Matthew Wong: 27:56

we're not if you're already like gyms or you know something big. But if you're just to do you know, a personal profiles might get one yeah, two shirts. Yeah. If you suddenly get in 400 500 700 800 chairs, you're like holy mother.

Joel Kleber: 28:10

Yeah. Yeah, totally agree. I don't want to be my own self at one small slice. So basically told Jim, which implements fan of Jim Carrey, my story that growing up, he had no idea and basically put on my personal page, I've only got, I keep it pretty personal. I'd like 110 chairs, which is a lot more than what you said. But it's a personal page. So this stuff resonates as far as and that's how this sort of stuff come about. It's like let's tell more about this. But, but when you've done because you've done a bit of a hard slog before that in regards to your channel, when you're posting a lot of content wasn't really reaching your stuff. And you've had this and then bang away you go.

Matthew Wong: 28:40

And now that's normal. Yeah, so not every video of course, but we pump out about two videos a day every day. And we'll get one every have that volume once a month or a couple few times a month. So we've had to this month already because you're

Joel Kleber: 28:52

because you're a machine like anyone like gonna be the content tangent because I still do it work. But you what you do is amazing. I know, obviously, you've got some time with you now but back in the day wouldn't have to pump out that consistent content. Like Where did that where did that discipline come from? Is like because the idea of it or the discipline? Well, the discipline naturally doing it because it's very easy to say, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this but you've actually you had this idea. You've done it, you're very organized. You're going Bang, bang, bang, bang bang, you know, I reckon if and that's why people share the success like you have with your channel is because they're consistent, and they're disciplined. So when we don't talk about your discipline or your approach into producing all this sort of stuff,

Matthew Wong: 29:28

we should know that on the psychological profiles. The only one that's accepted worldwide is the ocean model openness, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism, right? And the number one predictor of success is someone's conscientiousness is what you're talking about the discipline, the ability to be industrious and do something and to be orderly. So, anyway, that's a little Jordan Peterson thing. So I'm very low on discipline, conscientiousness, industriousness, really, really low. So it's funny that you would describe me as being disciplined.

Joel Kleber: 29:55

Or your Apple, your Apple, your Apple to me would say that, yeah, it's sort of like that. Surprisingly. either because your output doesn't your output would indicate someone who's highly disciplined holliger got this great consistency I wish I had what if I had your I'd love to have your approach in regards to what you do if you actually output? Well, money employed that helps have been for like a year. But to get to that position where you're unemployed, you've obviously have to be highly successful and you got to be disciplined in other fields and stuff that he would you have

Matthew Wong: 30:22

Miss I'm really I'm really lazy by nature really undisciplined so with this, what happened was I, I mean, we just done, you know, the whole mental health thing. And then I was trying to help people. So I guess coming from that place, it's more of a mission more of a more of a ministry, like my life's work than a job to get rich to buy a Tesla. That's not what I'm trying to do. It's not like a goal here. There's not a feedback loop. So

Joel Kleber: 30:50

this is your this is your purpose. So the challenge, would you would you say, I'm not gonna put words in your mouth? Would you say that is your purpose? Now?

Matthew Wong: 30:58

It's who I am. I'd be more accurate. It is who I am, like, I'm really raw and honest. on it. Yeah.

Joel Kleber: 31:04

That's like, your identity. It's part of your identity now.

Matthew Wong: 31:07

Yeah. But yeah, yeah, but not not in a sense that say, I'm a doctor. And therefore that's part of my identity more that I allow my identity to humbly spill onto the platform, and you can see me What's an all that's okay. And so now, it's just an extension of who I am. And I've got such a huge sense of purpose and satisfaction from that. So for me, it's a no brainer to just keep pumping out content. And especially because the goal is to help people. I think, in the end, we will be able to monetize and fund wages and my wage and whatever. Sure. But I think the core goal, if it's to help to be helpful, I think people would pay for that. In the end of the day.

Joel Kleber: 31:45

What some direct examples of you have your content helping someone?

Matthew Wong: 31:48

Oh, okay. Yeah. So when I see something in the news, I'll be like, Oh, why is that happening? They need to, I don't know, whatever, they're closing down this industry, and it's wrong, whatever. I'm gonna make some content about it. And are always it always happens in two stages. For me, I get that feeling. And I go stop, Matt stop. Because Is that helpful or not having a thought about I'm reacting, and most people do social that way. They go, I saw this thing. Bah, bah, bah, bah, bah. And then, you know, I always stopped myself and I go, hang on, how is this helping the person watching? So I'll stop or sit on it or listen to some music? Try and recenter myself? That also thing we talked about? And then maybe 70% of the time I go, there's no video there. I'm not making a video. I might go around to my wife. How terrible the lockdown is or something. Yeah, but there's no video there. Who wants to see me standing there saying the lockdown sucks. I mean, we all know that. So so I think saying no, unless it helps.

Joel Kleber: 32:51

There's a great little quote there. If you're doing any content creation lesson helps you put it out there.

Matthew Wong: 32:55

I mean, when I say it helps other people like Gary Vee, say value unless it brings value to your audience. something valuable,

Joel Kleber: 33:02

obviously, that's reinforced by obviously the veracity of some of those pieces as well, which has been very helpful and presumed, you know, changed a lot of maybes people thought so because like Australia's very complicit complicit society, we just sort of, you know, governances let me just do it. But I'm sure your your outline and would have helped change a lot of people's minds. I presume that a lot of messages over it as well.

Matthew Wong: 33:21

The biggest thing, okay, so the worst compliments I get is love your platform, agree with everything you say? Great. What are we creating an echo chamber here? Am I here to reinforce your view? Now, I appreciate them watching. But that's not that's not the only way to do it. The ones that say, Oh, I found hope, in a time of crisis. Like I'm, I'm helping this OLS like, I also lost my kid was in school, this happened and I didn't know what to do. But watching a video gave me the courage to write a letter to the principal and the principal reassured me and now we're okay. Thank you. Now my kids no longer afraid to go to school. And like, that's, that's great. That's what we're talking about.

Joel Kleber: 33:57

Yeah, that's great. That just gives you that more drive and the more and more to your purpose and also stuff to keep progressing and yeah, while you go, or another one. So

Matthew Wong: 34:04

we're gonna add another passion. Well, one of the real problems I had with this time around was a labor party. Next, I'm gonna be the Liberal Party, I'm tearing apart this time around the Labour Party to achieve their goals relied on dividing the community. This is what I hated the most about the whole lockdown in Melbourne from March 2010, whatever it was, we were told and in many different ways, when you go to the supermarket, that kind of thing, we will encourage to police one another, sometimes explicitly, the police would say if you see too many cars in your neighbor's driveway, call the police report them, like Hey, what happened to going over to your neighbors and asking what like, why are we just dumping each other in? Dan Andrews put out a post saying good morning to everyone except for those not wearing your mask properly, more worse, and it was like that this is not how you one this is not how you get compliance. Those who are not wearing the mask properly are not going to comply because you tease them premier. And second of all, why are you dividing our community into those who will come Fly whom won't comply because what you get is you get this is a real story. You get me walking along the river next to a Victoria Police Officer eating a pastry and a coffee and I had a water ball in my hand and two women blocking us in the path out for their run. screaming at us. Hey, I'm Victoria Police 1000 Man, I you should be wearing a mask he's eating a croissant doesn't matter. I see that that manifestation, we should not be encouraging that we should be trying to unite the community through a difficult time like COVID-19. So yeah, I had a real problem with that

Joel Kleber: 35:36

kind of magic. I want to segue into the mental health. From your perspective. Obviously, you got a lot of you got a lot of interactions with people during the lockdown time. So I want to talk about what do you think about the mental health argument? Because obviously during the lockdown, there was a narrative that was run about, you know, increased suicides and that sort of stuff. I don't know if the number if there is there was there wasn't it? It must be but anyway, yeah, there was a gut feel you would say let's increase you know, thing. But I think the stats in the end shows about the same. I've seen, yeah, the insurance that came out said that I saw and others that said they haven't I think we'll know more as we go. Yeah. And that's what I won't get into now. How long? Like what do you think the effects from this psychological because mental injury can be a long term thing could be PTSD, they can be things which come back to three years time at a time, you might experience something which you don't know affects you and it affects you down the track. What do you think from this period, like we're still going through it obviously, will be the long term side effects from mentally for people.

Matthew Wong: 36:27

So I had a medical clinic for nine years, right. And in there, I discovered there is a disconnect between the stats and, and the reality on the ground, for sure. And you can't, for example, look at a stat and say, suicides or mental health is down over the last 10 years. Therefore, we're doing well as a as a in terms of mental health, you really need to go deeper than a stat like that. And I look at things like my wife. She is a very politically unengaged type of person. So she's just trying to raise kids, you know, typical mainstream Australian just wants to get on with life. And she quietly you know, she's not she's not very, she's not out. She's a quiet sort of person. And she was smashed to bits by the lockdown. And she's like, Matt, I don't know what's wrong with me. I just, just not just dark thoughts, but I just I've got these kids. I don't know what to do with them. I'm losing my mind. And I was like, hey, it's, it's not your fault. You're in lockdown. And it's been three months. And she's like, Yeah, but like, I had this bad thought towards my kid. And I was like, okay, like, you're trapped in the house, you're not allowed to take him to the park, because when you do the other, it's illegal to go to outdoor Park back in the day. She was never caught in the stat. No one quite how much it? I mean, first of all, is that valid mental harm or not?

Joel Kleber: 37:48

Well, that's, that's what we don't know. And this is this is the whole thing, like, you know, you can when people were running the narrative saying, oh, there's increased suicide, you're in lockdown. I say when it's been about the same, but all that other stuff, which mental health is, you know, the, you never know, could be PTSD coming out of this. A lot of people I know, in the second lockdown happened in Victoria, when there's that feeling when when you heard that announcement, just that crushing feeling to you know, I felt that imagine someone who had serious mental health condition or some sort of issue, imagine what they would have done to them? How how's that track? what what what's the metric, you know, there's no data on it. You know, it's sort of one of those things and well, so

Matthew Wong: 38:20

my wife, she started to go to the park across the road, or even suburban Melbourne. Yeah, she went to the park across the road with my little Tarot because they were going crazy in the house took took me over half an hour, every few days. So it was completely illegal, right. One day, she was doing that. And she heard a police siren and actual police car coming down the street. And she quickly quickly kids kids, because it's illegal to be in the park. Now, they weren't coming for her, they were going to whatever else. But to this day, she still goes in the police cars there because she's taught herself that what the sense of condemnation, like what I'm doing might be wrong. And then it was the masks if you weren't wearing the mask properly, even when you're outside. If you had it down if you took it off to play with the kids or whatever. She feeling a lot of guilt. So there's a lot of mental health harm, I think that is not caught by it. And I think that's valid.

Joel Kleber: 39:07

The idea as well as pretty annoying, cuz I know we quoted it a few times with work. But I know people say there's increased suicides, and they come out of the fact that well, actually this the numbers are about the same. You have people who are on that side of politics and going on, it's about the same. That's a stupid thing. But there's all these other things with mental health, like there'll be PTSD from this, you know, I know that second that second, lockdown definitely triggered things, you know, people go towards more alcohol alcoholism. As you said, If Imagine if you lock down your family you could have abusive, that's the worst part of what I think we didn't

Matthew Wong: 39:35

bring that that is the number. So I've got a domestic violence expert command called Kathy Kaplan. She runs a charity called action for women. She focuses on domestic family violence, and that is absolutely out of control during lockdown was male on female domestic violence.

Joel Kleber: 39:50

And that stuff just gets dismissed. And this is what annoys me is I know, I don't care, political, liberal labor, whatever. You know, I'm blowing lean in particular way but we vote green. I definitely Maybe it I don't know, maybe I do. But um, but what I was gonna say is the Yeah, that's a massive one. And I think that was applied during the whole thing as well. Obviously, we want to say there's increase in you, people mental health and stuff like that, obviously is but domestic violence was massively under play, especially in recent events, with those poor with those tragic tragic events which have happened in and who knows what happened where they reported or they reported all those people still in their situations. And it's great if you get an expert on to talk about because there's a sitter, somebody, the awareness around that is still very, very, very limited. Well,

Matthew Wong: 40:30

I think we're going to be careful not to blame lock downs for it as well. I'll go I'll go to about here for Dan Andrews, right. You can't say lockdown caused all these men to hit their wives. Now. That's not fair. Come on. Dan Andrews didn't make that guy hit his wife. We have a violence problem. That's what we have. We need to fix that lockdowns probably made it worse.

Joel Kleber: 40:49

Yeah, sure. Sure.

Matthew Wong: 40:50

So I'm concerned about that. And I just want to say though, beyond all of the stats, like maybe this assume they're right, let's assume that suicides are the same violence, whatever. Okay, when What are you trying to say that? Let's have more lockdowns? Like, what? What are we what is what is the why behind these arguments? People are so attached to their side of the argument. If you win your argument, then what? Like, what do we want to do as a society? Do you want to keep locking down? Or do we want to come up with a more nuanced diverse, like New South Wales house?

Joel Kleber: 41:20

Well, fatta quite interesting that the Royal Commission of mental health came out. The findings came out probably two maybe a month ago, something like that. I think the Victorian Government said they're gonna accept all the recommendations and implementing which is fantastic, great. I'm still doubtful I don't know if they would have done that if it was not a COVID situation. Because it's such a big topic. It's a big win for voters. They've gone and accepted all these things, which is fantastic, but a lot of it's too late anyway. But what do you what do you think long term as well? The like, will do you think long term there'll be effects on just the average punter run this poor appear because we're still going through average punter was that, let's say the average bloke or girl? In what sense? Let's say like, let's say PTSD, or there might be so I interviewed a Jimena. computerease, right. She's freaked out. Okay.

Matthew Wong: 42:06

This is a public, she said on interview. Yeah, she's freaked out by this whole thing, because every time he got up in front of the purple, back, he did purple backdrop sermons. Someone taught me that saying, You stood in front of the purple theme and said we're gonna have to lock down again. It no longer was it like her stand there. Our commander lock us down. She was nailbiting. Like, I can't pay my rent my commercial rent. I don't know what I'm gonna do in the gym. Because gym memberships? What do I do? If you say it? I'm screwed. Don't say it. Don't say he said it. Holy cow. What do I do? What do I do? What did she say? She was she? She has that PTSD?

Joel Kleber: 42:39

Yeah. And the thing is, the concerning thing is, you know, when you get that way, you know you're that way. And you know, you should do things to take yourself out of that headspace. But it's very, very hard. So let's say for example, you know, you're tall you, let's say you maybe you meditate, you exercise every day, whatever. But if you're in that headspace, it's extremely hard to take yourself out of it. to then go and do something for yourself to help your own mental well,

Matthew Wong: 42:58

but well being with the Labour Party did something amazing recent that they Dan Andrews had an accident. And he disappeared. And they stopped doing the week. That's the thing. Yeah, it's been such a good mental health breath of fresh air for Victorians. And James Molina who's the acting Premier, like him or hate him on here, but he doesn't do a lot of press conferences, he puts out a written statement in the news public statement. I think that's the smartest thing that they've done. Because we were tired every day, what Stan gonna say what time is he talking? I know that you can't keep a state on edge like that. I secretly think he enjoyed that attention the way he kept doing it. But whatever the case, when he comes back next month, I think he really needs to be sensitive to the mental health of Victorians be a bit more gentle.

Joel Kleber: 43:43

I hope so. And I hope that the implementation regimen with the Royal Commission with the the mental health stuff they do actually implemented, put a lot more money to a bit. That's my bad point. I never thought of it that way. That saying him would trigger things in a lot of people. If you're a business owner who lost their business, you're in this time or you had, your kid may have you know, something's happened or whatever. Because of what the news has come out every day and said, as soon as every time you see that person, it will trigger things in people that could force them to do risky behavior, or this and that. And that's a very odd thing. Actually, I didn't think about that. Oh, consider it at all, on a hype day was a bit of breath of fresh air right now, right?

Matthew Wong: 44:17

We're all just kind of getting on with our lives

Joel Kleber: 44:19

even thinking about it. And I feel really good about it, but I didn't think about it until you said it. But that makes a lot of makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And then we had that period where every single day this person is given, what are they going to update update that's going to fit my business on my family here. We

Matthew Wong: 44:33

don't need to just just put out a press release. And if it's serious once a fortnight and get up,

Joel Kleber: 44:38

whereas you have the other perspective, though, whereas people might see that and go, Well, he's saving. He's putting stuff in place to help us or to save, you know, to save me which you do have a whole camp on that site as well. You can think that way. But it's so funny. It's so different. You can see the two polar opposites. Yeah, this person represents this say, thou shalt this person represents, let's say, Doomsday, yeah, it's quite a.

Matthew Wong: 44:57

It's unfortunate for him because he's had whether he was right or wrong. He's now associated with that. Lock downs. Yeah,

Joel Kleber: 45:03

absolutely. Because either way I get it as you know, with my position here, but we, every time I see that person, you get that trigger of what's the bad news and what's what am I going to prepare myself for? What's the, what's the repercussions? What's going to happen here? So it's a it's a very interesting thing, but I never thought about it. It's been a breath of fresh air lately and that's, that's probably the reason why I think

Matthew Wong: 45:22

Ozzy's want this we want to get back to normal life, and we don't care much for our politicians, which is a good thing.

Joel Kleber: 45:27

I think it's getting worse. Well, I mean, this is not a face to politics discussion, but I want to go into because you're, you've got a lot of knowledge and it's a lot more than me. But how do you that one thing he's gonna say, do you think your channels helping bring gauge people in politically, politically? Yeah,

Matthew Wong: 45:41

I think Dan Andrews did that. And I think COVID did that show. No, look, I'm not trying to engage people. I'm not trying to get them to be engaged. I want them to be aware. Right. I want to just expand that Overton window, that's all

Joel Kleber: 45:53

yeah. So that's that's a good thing. Because like the Yeah, I just think that my politics is just gonna go into too much longer, but just it's just hard to be engaged with that whole thing with you know, the scandals from federal government coming out of these various things. And it's just at a moment I just think it's an a massive mess. I don't know what's gonna What do you think the scary time What do you think we'll ever go down the path of America, we used to have this candidate for this person out of the blue, doing my best to

Matthew Wong: 46:18

prevent us from going into the polarization of America where we're Dan Andrews is the devil and scammer was our Savior. That's just as That's terrible. I don't want that reality. Yeah.

Joel Kleber: 46:28

I don't think it's gonna happen because I both, I think, yeah, but distrust for our politicians in Australia onward. Yeah.

Matthew Wong: 46:34

Yeah. Well, in some people say it's all time it's a trust is at all time high, because people like in Queensland and jumping to Ana station in. But anyway, I think distrust in our politicians, we've always kind of joked that we don't respect the politicians. Personally, I think that's not a bad thing. Because the end of the day, I think we can get along, get on with our lives. This is what Australians are good at. We're good at getting on with our lives. We're good at looking after one another. And we're good at making rational decisions. We don't need more and more my version of government to fight your version of government, how about we all just forget government for a while and get on with building our businesses and our lives? How about that?

Joel Kleber: 47:11

Absolutely. And I want to touch on because you're so spend so much time on social media, and you're seeing those platforms all the time, and I'm in the platforms as well, from my role. How do you deal with that mentally? Because it is a very draining thing to be stuck in those channels. I know it's calm comments up comments. So we've got a tick tock card for Jim's group. Now it's gone. Gone, actually pretty well. And I respond to every comment, and you might get 500 comments here. Do you have kids? You'd be surprised it's 40 year olds on the 30 year olds, would you respond to 514 year old comments, you know, on one video, but how do you how do you step away? How do you mentally refresh yourself with all the platform use that you would use?

Matthew Wong: 47:48

I have a problem because I engage with everyone, because I'm trying to be helpful. So they'll generally get a reply from me if I can't, I'll like I'll go and like comment, I try to react and give them some feedback as much as possible. And certainly if they message me, unless they're spamming me with links, I'll reply, I started to lose my adult probably at least an hour and a half every day. Like it's a significance like going to the gym, right? Every day. I'm responding, reacting, locking, commenting,

Joel Kleber: 48:14

which is draining because you emotionally invested in what you

Matthew Wong: 48:17

Yeah, but I'm doing it so that they feel like their their contribution is valued, right. I don't want them to feel like they're not valued. Anyway. That the draining stuff is the negative stuff, obviously. No, why are you making these videos you're paid by Big Oil

Joel Kleber: 48:34

is that people say,

Matthew Wong: 48:34

Yeah, right. The coal or you know, your idiot, or look at your hair, you know, you're losing your hair, and why should we listen to you when you say bald? And like, what the fuck?

Joel Kleber: 48:44

faceless profile or something? Yeah, let's say you always wear the same stupid suit. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Matthew Wong: 48:50

And worse than that, obviously, worst comment. So what do I do? Well, I don't know, you tell me what should I do? Because I can't, I can't ignore them. I want to engage. That's what socials for. So I don't know what to do about it. But you're

Joel Kleber: 49:04

obviously mature enough for you? Well, you've got enough purpose and self worth about yourself, where that's not going to really affect you. I think you may personally if you're, if you're putting stuff out there on social media, and you don't have your stuff sorted at a decent level, you should end up because you're going to get it sciences that first comment to you about let's say you're here or someone said it to me about, you know, whatever I'd be I'd be probably five years ago were being like real personal and whatever, person whereas now, I sort of step back and I look at and go well what type of person is writing that you might look as true you look at that person and are they just pissed off at certain things or whatever it is just away you go. But I think with content now these days, you're going to be content where you have to be pretty much self rockhard self esteem and that's why I'm surprised with people who do let's say the viral sensations are sent Tick Tock on Instagram and stuff like those influences with a million a million accounts but say half million bots or whatever but you know, those negative comments can really really get to someone people ecologically

Matthew Wong: 49:58

people have suicidal influence. have done that kind of thing. Absolutely. You know, when you get a negative comment, I've found it interesting thing a few times now like more than 10 times, I've responded back with more humility and they've turned around said all sorry. So, yeah, this is one guy Tick Tock. I don't do Tick Tock anymore, right back in the day. I didn't like female. Yeah, no one liked my stuff. Anyway, I put my business videos on Tick tock, and one of them go pay me out for my hairline. I'm losing my hair. Right.

Joel Kleber: 50:24

So Bron James that way.

Matthew Wong: 50:26

And I said something back like, like, I just took me out of myself. I said, Yeah, no, you should see the back of my head like, it's even worse. And but you know, I'll try harder next time, whatever. And he said back off. Sorry, man, like, I was just trying to be funny and didn't mean to say anything real mean, that I didn't scream it. I didn't say you hurt me. I just like showed my humanity. Yeah. And then that disarmed him.

Joel Kleber: 50:50

I think self made self deprecating. Absolutely. is the number one. Yeah, yeah.

Matthew Wong: 50:54

It's not even self deprecating, though. It's also agreeing with them. Some people say that was a crappy interview. Did you ask rubbish question. He never approached them about whatever. And instead of me saying, Well, actually, I tried here. And you know how hard it is to interview I say, You're right. I am pretty crappy at this. I've been doing it for three months. And I hope I can get better. Because that was a poor job. And then the guy's like, Ah, well, sorry, I didn't mean to get you down, like, Hey, I appreciate you making these videos, man. Keep going.

Joel Kleber: 51:22

It's interesting, isn't it? You provide that one thing. Whereas initially, if you went back the other way, you would get a fourth and you'd be fine and stuff. So it's a good tactic about it, but

Matthew Wong: 51:30

people should do, they should consume content with empathy, because we people making content, we need your empathy when you consume our stuff, man.

Joel Kleber: 51:38

Yeah, if you're gonna get the trouble of watching the whole thing, it's sort of, well, you remember you are helping that person out. So even if you give a negative kind, you watch the whole thing that's great for great for them anyway for the signal. But I was gonna say as well, what do you think will be the impacts long term with social media? Because obviously social medias a recent thing. I don't know what studies have been done in relation to its effects on the young brain or interpersonal people's mental well being over time, what's an

Matthew Wong: 52:02

accelerator isn't just like any technology, it's just accelerating patterns that were already there. So I don't try and attack the base of social media, I try to attack the issue underneath. So I like other people like Gary Vee, when he wants everyone to be kind to one another. I think that's better than trying to attack like don't use social media. So I'm trying to expand that Overton window, as I said, and get people to be more open to ideas, so that they don't just scream and jump down each other's throat, and it is working. There are people who say to me, I've live events and whatever, and they come up to me and they, they recognize me in the street, and say, Hey, I used to get really triggered by whatever. But now, IPA? Right? Gideon rosener. And those right wing people, protocol people. And let me say, it's such good,

Joel Kleber: 52:45

not that it can't be doing what he's gonna do older. A lot older. Yeah. Gonna be a lot older than that. The old slicked back, look him up. It's um, he's a very, he's a brilliant speaker. I'm gonna say that's one of the specimens that you're on. You had a q&a live? Yeah. I've never been great, great speaker. And you can tell I think it's a commercial lawyer. Is he Oh, yeah. Used to be, it would have been a bloody good one he wouldn't have wanted to go up against.

Matthew Wong: 53:05

So so people, as a lady said to me, You know, I was always triggered by the IP, because it's so right. Yeah. But lately, I've been just hearing them out, because you told me to embrace voices that can feel uncomfortable, because if you're uncomfortable, it shows that you're growing. And so she listens to when that guy comes on. Now, she doesn't agree with him, but she listens to hear what that side is saying. And goes, Oh, he had a very small point here. That was correct. The other nine tenths was rubbish. But that's interesting, I learned something. So I am the people who are telling you these things, they are growing, I am opening their minds, which is good, because Learned Hand where it was that jut not learning that another guy said, He who only knows his side of the argument knows little of that. And so you really don't understand your position until you understand the the attack of your position as well.

Joel Kleber: 53:57

And that's fantastic as Britain what you said, and I've just how do you get that instilled into people from a very young age, you know, is where, where we should be really focusing because I you know, that's somebody actually even say that that's a really mature thing. But that would be watching him be this guy or tightening or whatever it is. But he's makes a good point. Not many people can do that. And that's where I think we are channels. Great. Is that what that's what you're trying to do? And to get there. I think that's the most valuable, highest compliment you can get from your content. Yeah, is that you've created a person, you've changed that mindset, because it's not easy. It's so easy just to go with wireless. And this person has a great a great flavor that I say it's so easy, but growth comes with being uncomfortable.

Matthew Wong: 54:33

The other thing is I don't want them to come back to me and say, I've changed my views. I now agree with the IPA. you've convinced me I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. You're just presenting. Yes. And

Joel Kleber: 54:41

if you want to go whichever way you can, yeah. And if

Matthew Wong: 54:44

listen to the IPA makes you stronger in your environmental and greens party views been great, at least your views now a stronger and I respect you more for it. We can have a discussion now.

Joel Kleber: 54:54

Yeah, I think it's brilliant. But like, as I said, How do you instill that into because I think what needs to happen that's it. People do Think that's something you can develop as a as a young person. Well, how do you think that comes about? or Why do you think? Obviously, it's human nature? Would you like to agree with people like that? But so how do you think you instill that? Or how do you? How do you create more people who have that sort of mindset? So I'm trying to work out. Because I think we'd be a lot better place, you know, especially at all all levels of government and stuff. If you had that,

Matthew Wong: 55:21

well consider this, if you are threatened by an opposing view, then doesn't that highlight that your view is weak? Like you're only a dog, you know, it's from dog behavior, right? When they put on a show, they're scared, when they're out there trying to prop themselves up, when a dog is seriously going to attack you, their posture changes, they get they growl and bark and a little bit, they get that instead of show force, they get like a like a lion, and lo, they start getting ready to actually run and bite you. So I think when people get really threatened, they kind of defending what you see in their position, and they should invite that threatening view to strengthen their own position. That's exactly what I've done over the past couple of years. And it's made me more calm as a person. Because when someone says, Why do you believe government shouldn't meddle in small businesses? Before I be like, well, now I can be like, because it's bad. And that they might say, but we're aware of this, and this totally calm because I've tested my views. And I can say, Well, actually, it's not a good idea. And I think the person who's very, very calm in their views, is actually got a stronger view than the worst and who's screaming wailing driving

Joel Kleber: 56:33

need to defend? Yeah, I completely agree. That's a great that you said that. It's, it's kind of like a great little clip. But um, yeah, you only get growth through being uncomfortable. And that's why you see these pages or people on either side of the argument, and just like, they just can't be presented with anything else. You know, if it's, even if, here's a bit of fact, you know, what I'm saying it's this or that or make your own thing. And it's just, it is very, what we wish there be more people who would just counter what that lady did that sort of same conclusion. It's what we need. And what people if anyone's watching this try apply to your same stuff. So where do you think you're going to take your your channel? what's what's your plans for?

Matthew Wong: 57:09

We're trying to become big, because I see a need for it. I think that, you know, we're trying to help people, I think, when there's a lot a lot of places and industries that need help, like, I think media landscape is broken news. That's why we do the people's project. And this season, we're just about to launch now we're stepping out and I've got politicians who are going to come and sit next to me and present the news. Can you imagine that? Imagine how I mean, not damages to big, smaller politicians like small ones, right? Like sitting MPs presenting the news to you, that would be really interesting. Not so much because that you can trust them for the news. Imagine seeing an MP react to the news. Do you think their performance still? Why do you think you still need to performance still, because

Joel Kleber: 57:49

it's on camera?

Matthew Wong: 57:50

But who cares? My point is you can see it. So some of my interviews, there are long form, right? Some of them, I like to call it himself, some of my guests. I don't ever say this publicly, but I don't mind if the guest is really good or really bad. All I'm trying to get to is the truth. So some of my guests to have come on and hung themselves, metaphorically speaking, not a good on this podcast. Sorry. I know you mean, but they come on, and they and they they make themselves look so silly. Yeah. And that's, that's helpful, too. Because that's showing people you know, they get up and talk about some issue or over and over, especially the independent MPs around the place, animal rights or something. And then when you actually question them in long form, you see them tie themselves in knots and you are, you don't really know what you're talking about D is okay. All right, there we go. So same with the MPs presenting, I reckon I'll have an MPC next me. We're talking about the news, and you'll see them react to it and people go, holy cow, like he doesn't get it or he really is authoritarian or he really believes in, in mental health awareness or whatever. I think it'd be really revealing.

Joel Kleber: 58:55

Yeah, this is gonna be live pipelines gonna be recorded. I

Matthew Wong: 58:58

wish we could do live but we can't afford it. So we'd record on Friday mornings, right. And we we edited all day and we released on Friday night.

Joel Kleber: 59:05

Okay, I look forward to that. And look anyone as I said at the start, please make sure you look up discernible.

Matthew Wong: 59:10

There's so probably platform for you is facebook, facebook still most right? Unfortunately. Unfortunately, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, but we're also that's just one arm is notes. We also want to go into media more generally. Okay, so I'd like to see more creative stuff and you start to see this coming to the daily wire, they start to do feature films. Sure. Now this is a big dream. This is a long way what's the sort

Joel Kleber: 59:34

of dabbled in I've seen a few I tried.

Matthew Wong: 59:36

Pretty bad but short, I tried to do some what two minute clips. I just think that there is a space there for a different type of media, whether that's news short films or films, and also for into interviews like I mean, that's my main passion, right is interviews. So the Oprah stuff and there's current affair. I mean, that's a bit, newsy. More the lifestyle stuff like the today show and CHANNEL SEVEN. Sunrise, even though like cooking shows, I find there's a lack of realness There

Joel Kleber: 1:00:05

are so produced so produced by reviews, like they review like vacuum cleaners. Yeah,

Matthew Wong: 1:00:11

we need honest reviews of vacuum cleaners. So discerner was going to come out and do a review show on products. It's something that

Joel Kleber: 1:00:18

like you're in Dallas direct, the center director, that's back in the day, the old ones, he's gonna go after the knives, the cigar, always remember, wait, there's more. But wait, there's that guy. Absolutely. But we need more trust. I know, you may know you make his like what people forget is, especially when they watch mainstream media, I hope I'm not going to use the time in MSN, dismiss it or like there's a lot of programs and stuff or watch. But mostly, it's good, honestly, most physical. But when you deal with, I've dealt with a lot of reporters from seven and nine and 10. Tomorrow, and just like, they just did just the person. They're just the person who's going to get this other story. They might even be the news director coming at being a journal gathered the news director, they ended up the way they want, that's three people you know, and then then you spit it out. And then people just you believe that the people behind they've got biases, the news article and biases. And this is the only remember. So that's why I would suggest if you are looking for more for more stuff, definitely follow your channel, I think. But just remember, always remember that Yeah, even with the stuff you're not saying you do, but like everyone's got personal biases when we put out things and you've got to understand that when you say patients channel seven or nine, just don't react well, initially, yeah, go to somebody, well, they

Matthew Wong: 1:01:26

should do the same thing to determine. So I don't know how deep we go into our content. But something I often say is don't trust discernible. Don't trust me, don't trust my coworkers. Don't trust seven, nine and 10. Trust yourself, watch us watch them make up your own mind. Because I think we've gone we've crossed the Rubicon. We're no longer in an age where we can outsource our conclusions to other people, those heuristics that people employ those shortcuts. Well, if Laurie oak said it, it's true, that we used to be able to do that.

Joel Kleber: 1:01:52

Absolutely. And I remember, I agree with you like watching 60 minutes or something as a key dog, you're 12 years old, you would think this, this is the truth. This is this is what now as you get a bit older, you sort of go now it's definitely not it well might be the check. It could be But yeah, definitely check the fencin. And the way you're gonna have been proven to be wrong multiple times and obviously gets exposed and needs to be more of it. So that's fantastic. In regards to what you're doing now. I was gonna say, what was going to say, with your with your process itself? You just mentioned real quickly after this, the content side of it. Oh, yeah, sure. So you film you film in the morning and you yourself personally edit or you're outsourcing and how you're doing it? Oh,

Matthew Wong: 1:02:26

yeah, I've always done everything in house until I hired my first full time employee back in November. And it's the same, we do the same thing now as it did before just more more quantity. So the quality I the way we do it, I said months ago. So traditionally, I like to film pillar content. So one big piece. So you know, we just interviewed for an hour, hour and a half. Yeah, you'll cut this up, I shoot in the same way you try and find value in five, six clips out of this and post them separately over different times desires. Yeah, we do the same thing we try and make. So people's project is a pillar into our TV show every Friday night, the other side of shreds on Wednesday into an interview with say Jim Penman I had on right, I've got a number of clips out of him. And then I'll cut that up into I'll publish the full thing so people can see the contest, because I don't think you should only have edit to bits. But then I'll cut down like three minutes there that take that chunk, put some music on it and publish it and do that like 10 times. And then that enables people to engage in something smaller than two hours of Jim Penman. And the most important stuff he might say in the middle of that, look, the best way to dig yourself out of a hole is to start a franchise and in 600 people have done it in the last two months and they've changed their lives. And this is how they did it with Jim's mind. That little two minute segment could change someone's life. So I need to find that gold put it out somebody sees it

Joel Kleber: 1:03:48

change and using the full Adobe Suite up in your studio. It's quite impressive. All

Matthew Wong: 1:03:52

right. dhobi premiere Premiere Pro you could do what we do on on iMovie Yeah,

Joel Kleber: 1:03:57

absolutely. Because it's a quite impressive setup. You've got your house and your staff now which is fantastic and and staff members. So your channels your channels, obviously what is your plan is you just touched on before is to have an almost let's say call it network of voices. Yeah, right.

Matthew Wong: 1:04:10

I want to be eventually I want to be a channel seven but better version. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone will be laughing right now. But at some point,

Joel Kleber: 1:04:18

like someone's gonna do, it's got to start somewhere. Look,

Matthew Wong: 1:04:21

here's a good quote, right? Everyone dreams but not equally. Those who dream in the dark recesses of night awake to find it was all in vanity. No, it was all in vain. But those who dream during the day, they're dangerous, because they dream with their eyes wide open and might actually achieve the impossible. And so that's what I'm doing. I'd like to see a channel seven 910 that is, that is what's happening. Isn't it like this, their ratings are doing this? What's going to come out the other side at the moment. We've only got Joe Rogan. What else is coming? It's not just Joe Rogan. There's gonna be a whole bunch of us.

Joel Kleber: 1:04:54

You are and that's a really good point. What you make is where we go into consume on YouTube. We're going to consume on those platforms like I don't know Not now I don't watch TV or watch YouTube or watch completely streaming, which is why the big deal if you've gone to streaming, but if you can make a better UI better UX for an app, and get content to those people, whether it be that's why social media on the platform to get served in your newsfeed or go down a rabbit hole, and away you go, that's, that's where the real the real money is, you know, and that's where it's going to be. And then those channels as you said, I think the people are distrusting, or they're not they're not engaging the q&a is a good one, the q&a on the ABC, they're ready to close up obviously collapse because now people are reading it like looking at and gone. This is obviously gonna be said for a long time, john said, Why? No, I'll get my stuff from elsewhere. I'll go engage in these other platforms. And Joe Rogan's a great one who you mentioned, like Joe Rogan is probably similar to yourself in regards to very, very neutral, but he's very neutral. How do you elevate me to the level of jury? well know what I mean by using the attention. So the intention of what you want to do with ease, he's trying to he's funny and have fun and talk with mates? Absolutely. It doesn't matter if they're Republican or Democrat. They're only this sort of pro that you know, and that's, that's where I think, you know, that's where the next big people are. And who's next week, Joe Rogan, who's an Australian equivalent of it. It's probably now on really in Australia. I don't know what you think about the equivalent of it yet but Joe Rogan, yeah, well, we've

Matthew Wong: 1:06:14

got like the carrier Brian's the mainstream interviewers, but these coming a day, where people will say this happened. I need to get my story out, paid discernible. Can we have an interview, like Israel flower, or somebody who's in trouble? In America, go to Oprah. I want them to come to the dinner table.

Joel Kleber: 1:06:31

And that's a great goal. And that's and that's how ambitious obviously, that's where you want to get your network to a unicorn network, eventually, you're going to call it a channel, what's your plan on on? Doesn't matter? The setup? No, it doesn't matter. I'm just trying to think but in regards to ambition, size is going to have like a given example. It's taken us to can use an online streaming platform is your plan to put your content into sort of like a website, that sort of style or how you're going to

Matthew Wong: 1:06:52

Yeah, well, yeah. So when we work with the mentor who mentals the ticker founder, it's a no bit about them. They do a really good job. He

Joel Kleber: 1:07:00

had to run their studio race. And that's why as asking there, yeah, you've been to the studio. Well, I took I have gimana interview in there. Yeah. Did you go in you wish man I said he got lost, or you didn't go in?

Matthew Wong: 1:07:09

No. Do you guys pretty fancy setup. But they Unfortunately, they also only doing one that like, it'd be nice if they brought in anyway. We're talking about ticket? Yeah, look, I love to go that way. But at the end, I'll only make those sort of decisions that will best help will serve the people watching because that's why i dissembles that it's one of the very core values is I won't allow my presenters, they can say whatever they want, generally speaking, and I don't exercise editorial control, and I'm trying to get another presenter on and it'd be the same free reign for them. But there are a few core values that we will not break, for example, we won't abuse the audience, we won't trick them for our benefit, because everything we do is to serve that Mr. value, give them value to help them. And so whether we go to take and use or not. You know, we learn a lot about this during my MBA people make decisions based on metrics and what will earn most money and so on. That should be a secondary consideration for us. The first will be if we go to a tech news format, will that be better or worse for our current people? So so people told me to go to rumble to avoid censorship, and telegram? And yes, because some of the content I put out, is listening to all sides, right. So if I listen to someone from a side that Facebook might ban on putting my pain under threat, but for me to move to rumble or telegram, whatever, it's only going to move me into a narrow audience who only have one view which is completely antithetical towards assemble is so I would never do that even if it benefits us.

Joel Kleber: 1:08:43

Not gonna do it. Now. You may now just some quick ones as well, before we let you go. What do you think the best interviews you know, who are the best guests who have you had on best in what sense most interesting, what's the most interesting, what do you think would be the most plausible you found the most interesting

Matthew Wong: 1:08:56

most surprising would be Jim Penman.

Joel Kleber: 1:08:58

Okay. Okay.

Matthew Wong: 1:08:59

Surprised. You've seen the interview with him? Yeah. uprising, because he talked about all sorts of stuff besides

Joel Kleber: 1:09:04

by history not knowing. Yeah.

Matthew Wong: 1:09:08

are really locked in as a person who best guessed all Gideon Rosen was excellent. He's hilarious. He's very one sided. Like he's, yeah, he's a flag carrying right wing, conservative guy. But funny, nice guy. That Yeah, that's question I've had I've had, they're all good. They're not all good. The good guests, the ones that are real and interesting. The ones that are there because they're trying to spin a line. That's not fun.

Joel Kleber: 1:09:47

But as you said, you might be you probably wouldn't say you would deliberately catch him out. But you obviously I don't do gotcha. No,

Matthew Wong: 1:09:54

no. So so there was one guy I won't say what he said because it'll it'll point him out. But he said thing and I was like, that's it my head. That's completely false. And so I asked him another question around it any and then he maintained the foot and then asked him another one he gets all Well, I guess yeah, and then he let it all go. So good. I don't want to, I don't want to be like, gotcha, I just want to get the truth out and if I can do that gently whilst maintaining their dignity.

Joel Kleber: 1:10:20

Great. Now one thing I want to leave with is because I had a question, I've got a lot of questions in here, I didn't get to Warden will go for nearly an hour and a half away and go for an hour. So thank you very much for your time. But what's one bit of advice, because you had that, obviously, as mental health, you had that you had that moment, and we did touch it. It's just it's hard to extrapolate it when you think about it, but you had that moment. And you've you've said you got pulled out of it. But I think you've definitely put things in place. Or you've, you've come to some sort of internal epiphany, which you sort of mentioned before, what advice would you have to someone who's maybe be in a similar position, or just sort of at the moment, they just lost? They don't know what their passion is, what advice would you give to someone in that position? So we're not talking

Matthew Wong: 1:11:02

about the dark thoughts. And also we're talking about just like a passion

Joel Kleber: 1:11:05

or like a passion. I think if you know, if you have to have dark thoughts and advice regarding humans, please, you know, please get help. Please, please use those numbers. Obviously, they're there to use it. But in regards to a passion or purpose, you know, a lot of papers, a lot of people like that, yeah, we go through life, you know, for 10 years, 12 to 20 years and get to 40. And you're like, Oh, you know, I'm not happy or whatever done. You think it's too late. So what's the what's the bit of advice of those sorts of people?

Matthew Wong: 1:11:29

I think you should probably ask the question. I see this question a lot. What should I do? What should I do? What should I do? And that's the answer, isn't it? Young kids? Who should I become? What should I do? Well, I find purpose in people in midlife crises. They're like, I've been a doctor for 40 years. But now I or I'm a dentist and I quit and what I do now? I think we're asking the wrong question. When we say What should I do? And I was at least, and I switched to asking, I think, a much more powerful question, which is, who am I? And so I think people should ask that question. Who am I? Who am I? Who am I? Who am I? Because everything I've done in terms of expressing purpose has been out of an overflow of who I think I am, or at least who I'm becoming. And so I think it's an identity question, rather than an action question. And if you can figure out who you are not that I figured out if you can go on that journey and be seeking that wisdom of who you are, I think that will produce fruit that is a lot more genuine, and a lot more fulfilling, because you're acting out who you are, rather than what you think you should do.

Joel Kleber: 1:12:32

That's a great bit of advice and but sometimes people might not be careful of who they are as well. So there's another another thing we can get to but thank you very much for Matt for your pleasure coming out here as well and it's cold night, you know, Benny three and a half and you've provided a lot of great stuff and I would encourage anyone to give you a follow so what accounts what are the handles that people need to look up just search for discernible within a discern able and if you do come across the content, please watch it in interact with best content, you know, it's a great thing you're doing and doesn't lean one way or the other. So if you are getting four months or you think it feels a bit right wing at the moment, because I haven't had that level and guess yeah, I think once you get that it's gonna be it's gonna be quite interesting to see what happens if your fan base will be quite quiet. I'm interested to see that but um, please make sure you give a follow, interact with his content. He's doing a great man of stuff and if you do like we say, please share leave I know as well. Thanks, Matt. Leave it there.