Joel Kleber: 0:00

Welcome to lived Experience podcast. I'm your host Joel Kleber. On today's episode, I've got an interview with Darcy Smyth, who was a business owner. And he's someone who studied psychology. But I've known Darcy for a long, long time and did a call after guests. And he was kind enough to jump on and share a story that happened to him and his family. I've got to give you a warning, it goes in some pretty heavy stuff. And if you do, if it does bring up any thoughts or anything like that, please make sure you use the relevant services. And a big thanks to Darcy for sharing his his family stories. It is one that is very tough to hear. But in saying that dasp provides a lot of great insights. And just a lot of really good advice for anyone who goes through this similar situation, or Ken has experienced it before. The insights he provides I think, are really unique. And I thank you very much for his openness and for his time, and for sharing his story as well. And being proactive and reaching out, it means a lot. He's a great filler, and I really do hope you get a lot out of today's episode. As he Thank you very much for joining me in the lived experience. And you reached out, I did a bit of a call out for guests. And you reached out and I've known you a long, long way back in more trouble. You're a guitar player. And I think you were my student for like for a little short while so

Darcy Smyth: 1:08

yeah, not to mention, not to mention make the day spent at the skate park some hobbies earlier than that as well. Yes, I knew that

Joel Kleber: 1:14

going on. kilos lighter. Exactly. Right. But not anymore. But you reached out and you've got a quite you know, it's a it's a tragic story, because I've had another guest on who's had a similar thing happened to him. So maybe you want to talk about your your lived experience with mental illness and mental health and how it's affected you? Yeah, for sure.

Unknown: 1:36

So as you mentioned, Joe, I grew up in one ball, great family, we're very, very tight family had great friends, friends with them. I'm still very much close with today. You we both know audible, it's a very tight knit community, everyone seems to know everyone etc. So grew up in a very supportive loving environment. My my upbringing was was awesome in that respect. And then when I was older, I've been I must have been around about, say 20 or 21. At the time, we had no idea but Mum had essentially been struggling with anxiety issues for quite some time for really quite a large majority of her adult life, I would suggest in ways that we weren't necessarily not necessarily aware of. And so I remember she got us together one day, we'll just sort of sit down the back of our house. And she said, you know, guys, she was quite upset, visibly upset. She said, Guys, I've got just something to let you know, got us, all of us kids around myself, my sister Bree and my brother, Jay Joel, I'm sure you know, as well. And she said, I've been really struggling with mental health. It's been going on for quite a while. I've never really let you guys know. But I just wanted to take the opportunity now, because it's all starting to become a little bit too much for me. I'd like to let you know that's what's been going on. So if you ever see me struggling or anything like this, this is what's going on. Now. It's interesting made at the time, anxiety seems to have become such a quite a buzzword, I think over the last 10 years, I suppose it's become quite common in the vernacular of people. And that may be a reflection of what we're going through as a as a human race at the moment, or it just might be a reflection of, you know, just the way society runs these days. I don't know whether there's always been this level of anxiety in society. I'm not sure either. But it's certainly been something it's much more spoken about now. But back then, May when she mentioned that word, I literally said to us, like what's anxiety? Like? How does that show up? What's what's involved with that? I'd had no idea. And so, you know, she sort of explained how her experience was and what went on for her. And then over the next seven, six years, I should say something like that, because I was 26, when she passed away. Yeah, over the next six, six years probably tells the story of quite a level of, we'll call it degradation. And sort of just slow, slow. Loss, I should say is probably and eventually she took her own life some six years later. So we, we've experienced all of that. And when you put the call out to the to the podcast for guests, I was like, I feel like I can add value here. I feel like I can share my story. And if that helps any kids in particular, children of any form of mental health issues, understand their position a whole lot better, then I'll take the opportunity to do that all day every day because it's not often you get the opportunity to share that and help other people so

Joel Kleber: 4:35

to share now, I appreciate you reaching out it's a very it's a very obviously hard thing to hear. You know, and there's there's people that this happens to but it's not probably not not saying promoted but it's not talked about enough we do right. We do hear anxiety and depression used a lot but there's not much beyond that in regards to what we hear about talking about it and unfortunately, you know, what's happened to your family is very, very, very tragic and it's happened in a happens, unfortunately now, so moved on to talk back to when your mom told you about anxiety. What did you do? Was it something where you looked it up? Or how did you was? And was next steps of the family?

Unknown: 5:10

Yeah, well, the thing is, because because it was to such a degree, anxiety can lead you to anxiety can lead you to be even confused about your own anxiety, it can lead you to not even trust your own level of distrust like it's it's almost a circular nature to it that can really feed back onto itself anxiety, it's quite interesting. So when I asked Mum, tell me a bit about anxiety, what goes on for you, she even couldn't really fully language, what it actually was, she just knew constantly that something was off, and it wasn't right. And there was some sort of, you know, pain that she would have in her chest in her garden, you know, all the symptoms that we know that come up before you're about to give a public speech and, and can people can live with quite consistently and constantly so to speak. And she said it all started for her when she was young. And at one of her first jobs and she struggled, struggled to sign her name on her paycheck each week back when that must have been what you do with paychecks either sign your name, I don't know. She said she'd struggled to actually sign her name, she couldn't bring the pen to actually put it on the paper to do this. And she said, that happened one day, and she's like, I don't think this is okay. I don't think this is normal that I can't sign my name. And so that was one of the first sort of symptoms that she had. And then from there, it grew all the way up to the day that I actually had the conversation with her. And I said to her, how does it show up now? What's the experience that you're turning to have with it now and she said, are das I just, I just get this massive, like, sort of a hole in my chest. And, and it's just this, this void that can't be filled. And it just leads me to not have really any confidence. And it leads me to not necessarily enjoy being around a lot of people a lot of the time leads me to, you know, have all the thoughts going on my head, drilling me for the person that I am all of it all the stuff that you hear that it gets pretty drastic for a lot of people. And essentially that's how I got to know about it was through one of literally mums lived experience. I was literally about to call it that without realizing that's what the podcast is called. But yeah, that's that's how I came to become in touch with it and what it's all about,

Joel Kleber: 7:22

and had your mum. So after she had as you guys know, obviously positive Yeah, as a kid, you want to support your mom, right? See, Mom tells you the singing you sort of thinking as a bloke well, how do I how do we fix this? Or how do we help? So yeah, what step Did you did you did you tag? Was it something where you was mum? was normal counseling or what was the next step as a family with?

Unknown: 7:40

Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. So Mum was seeing a lot of counselors, a lot of therapists was on, you know, medication and things like that. Moving forward, that the specifics around medication, things like that. I'm not really sure I never got too deep into that. As a family, I think what happened for us as kids so me, my brother and my sister, we all sort of got together a whole lot more in terms of how do we support mom and dad, because dad was at home with mom, the whole time that she was experiencing it helped her Android and 10% would have given absolutely everything just to see her healthy again, healthy and happy again. And I mean, everything he would have given everything he had, including I'm sure he's on life just to know that she was okay. You know, dad was an is an incredible husband and father, and so us as kids, we more got together in terms of how do we support mom and dad because it's not just mum that was going through it now it was dad going through it whether that makes sense. So for us, we sort of just made conscious decisions to check in probably three to four times more often than we ever really would have. And we were all sort of away from the house at the time. My sister was living at home but then she ended up moving away to Perth. I was living in Melbourne at the time, so I wasn't home. My brother was living in I believe he was in Warrenville, but he wasn't actually at home at the time wasn't living at home at the time. So we were all far enough away from home to make checking in a priority. And it was almost like that was that was the most control that we could have job. But here's the interesting thing. I found in my own experience of of that with mom, I found that it became really incredib incredibly obvious and evident that mental health issues extend far beyond what you believe you can rationally help someone with a lot of the time. I remember thinking to myself, if I can just check in with mum more often she'll start to feel better. Or if I can just encourage you to exercise or I can encourage her to write her feelings down. I can do all of this she'll start to get better. But that's applying logic that's applying the law. logical thinking to something that is so phenomenally irrational, and, and non logical to the point that we're what it actually ends up happening is, I'll check in more often. And that's great. And I still live with anxiety every day. Or I'll do exercise and I'll feel better about that. And I still live with anxiety every day, the two almost don't actually implement each other our whole time. I don't know if that's the right word. But yeah, that's what I started to find was like this is actually on a level deeper than just what we can rationally help her with, so to speak. I was having this conversation with my partner yesterday. And I say it because we've recently had a daughter first daughter's coming to Lourdes been awesome seven weeks ago. And I said to her, it's really interesting how our love for Vera, our daughter, our love for Vera, doesn't actually impact generally how you can feel day to day, it's not like you've had a daughter, now you have a kid, this thing comes into your life, and you just love and being a parent, and life is just great. Now, it's life's really hard. And we're a parent as well. And that's awesome. So the two that go along the same way. And when I think about mum, and I think about well, the feeling that my mum has for me as her son, is the exact same feeling that I have severe on my daughter, which just goes to show you that you can have so much love for something yet, irrationally, what's going on mental health for you wise, is bigger and stronger than any of that feeling actually going on for the things that you love in your life. You know, I often think when people say, with, you know, go on more holidays, exercise more, eat better, it's like those things will help you with your health and for the ability to go on a holiday. But the mental health stuff exists on a deeper plane than that, I suppose is what I've experienced. And it's easier said than done as well. You know, like, with my mom, she had a bipolar disorder is the basic things don't eat right and do exercise and stuff. And I could tell that all day to this thing. And she just didn't do it. Yes. And even though she knew she wanted to do it, she just couldn't do it. So we can tell our loved ones or whoever if some of the mental illness or condition you need to do this, and this and this, but it's far more, easier said than done. And you're right, it does go on a far deeper level. And it's something where it can be frustrating if you are the loved one because you know, you still want that person to be right. And these things sound basic, but they're not that they're not that easy to put in place. Whilst it may, I'll say, and I was gonna say so your mum. So you only found out about it later. You're 20 Was it? 2120 21? Yes. Yeah. So your mom? Sounds like you've unfortunately kept this under wraps for a long, long time. So yeah, it was really didn't help. Well, I'm just gonna say like, I'm not saying I don't, it's hard to, it's hard to just describe the word of what to say. But it's obviously a very, very tough thing for her to go through and silence for so long. So did your father know about it? Or was your all told about it at the same time? Great question, dad. That always I mean, dad's the closest person to her, you know, throughout her adult life, so I'm sure that he understood it on a, on a deeper level, he probably just naturally and intuitively picked up that, you know, it's not normal, some of this stuff that does or how she behaves, or, or what she's afraid of, or things like this, but as far as the actual official letting us know, I'm actually not sure. Actually, I've never really asked Dad. I was with him the other day. And I said, you know, growing up dad was, was, Did you ever notice that mum was you know, a bit quirky, a bit different? That'd be it, you know? And he's like, Yeah, of course, of course, like, you know, that's part of what attracted me to her and that, you know, she was different to anyone else you'd ever meet. And she had a she had a real fun side. And all of this came out of her. But he made an interesting point. And you'd be you know, you've experienced this yourself, Joel, I'm sure is in smaller towns a lot of the time and I know in one of the life experiences growing up as well as drinking culture is a big thing. Like it's, it's a badge of honor to start drinking a bit earlier in your life and how many beers you can punish on a weekend is a is a badge of honor and things like this. It's kind of silly, I remember experiencing that growing up. And so he said that, you know, growing up in because he grew up in Melbourne, but then they moved to Warrnambool, when Mum was an adult, because of the drinking culture was so common. I feel like she was able probably to mask a lot of it in social situations, because he could always just have a drink. And of course, that would suppress the feelings a bit in life would appear normal on the outside. So that probably had a lot to do with it not showing up until later in life because it could be masked a bit easier.

Joel Kleber: 14:39

And why do you think it took so long for her to tell you guys because I'm obviously a lot older. So what why do you think was just something where maybe you'd be ready to hear it or it was sort of getting to a point where she needed to reach out for more assistance from you or what what do you think it was

Unknown: 14:56

probably a bit of both, I would say I think the problem with anxiety is that it's the anxiety that convinces you you shouldn't tell people like that's the, that's the mean circular energy of it is you are so uncomfortable, and then it tells you don't reach out for help either, because that'll be even more uncomfortable. So yeah, so it's really, really hurts that way. So I would say that it, I would say that she would have reached out for help earlier, but it just would have been a, probably a, probably an embarrassment thing I would say with mum, she probably just didn't want people to think that there was anything ultimately wrong with her in quotation marks, when, in actual fact, there was never anything wrong, she probably experienced a lot of what we all can experience in life in the early days, but just didn't feel comfortable to actually talk about it or bring it out. I often think if she'd have, you know, that day that she went to sign a piece of paper, if she'd have actually called out for help that day from someone, could someone have helped her right there. And then and then the initial entanglement might never have begun. But you know, you could think about that stuff till you're blue in the face, it's probably not going to change much.

Joel Kleber: 16:06

And that's why we go at this point, again, because I think when people hear anxiety, they just think it's something that's not that serious, right? So I'm gonna talk from your perspective about this describe a bit more in detail about the serious in this office, obviously, it's a really tragic outcome. It's called lead to so I'm going to just talk about the serious stuff, because people might just think, Oh, it's just a few voices in their head. Or occasionally you go outside, you might be a bit tired chest, because you're, as you said, going before a speech or something. So yeah, I'm just I'm talking about from your perspective and give people more education on it. Yeah.

Unknown: 16:37

I'm glad you asked this question. It's good to have that opportunity. So typically, when people I think here of anxiety these days, one of two things usually comes up. Number one is are What's there to worry about, everything's going great for you look at you, you got a great house, you got a great family, you've got a loving household and loving husband, wife, etc, you'll find like, What's there to worry about? You'll be okay is usually one that can come up. And the other is, are we all get a bit nervous from time to time? No, like, you know, life's not easy for anyone, is sort of the way that we can look at it right. And, you know, fair enough if that if that's the perspective that you're I'm, I'm envious of people that can have that perspective. I'm envious of people who can go Oh, yeah, but you'll be fine. Because it means they've never had to empathize with the experience that someone could be going through when they actually are in that struggle. That makes sense. So the seriousness of it is that when it is taken to a level or a degree that appears unresolvable or on, manageable is probably the best way to describe the job. When it's taken to a level of that you essentially start to slowly see the person that you love, go further and further and further and further into their shell. And when I say further and further into their shell, I mean that mentally and I also actually mean it quite literally in terms of physically. So Mum was really at the point, by the end were leaving the house was it was, it was a it was a pipe dream. Or if she did, it was phenomenally uncomfortable for her to do so. And then really within the house, it even became, you know, within the house that was just she was either in the bedroom sleeping, or just out the back having a coffee in a smoke. And that was kind of it. You know, that was you know, so even within our own household, there was open parts where it just became more comfortable to be than others. We had an upstairs of our bedroom upstairs of our house at home. Man, I couldn't tell you how many years of the final years of her life, she just never went up there. Like there was never anything out there. You know, it was just no reason. So she to see her go through that and to see her just become less and less and less of who is this vibrant, loving person she once was, was was really tough to watch her go through that. And the thing is, it doesn't happen overnight. It happens day by day, and actually happens almost, shall we say year by year. And so much so that it will happen at such a slow rate. The generally day to day you don't really notice it, until one day something clicks and you're like, man, they just don't look at well, are they? It's just not. It's just not the person they used to be. And then because it's happened day by day over so long in order to start resolving that can be such a long journey back because that's now a day by day and year by year journey. That a lot of the time. I think what I know I wish had happened or I wish for other people is that they could go back to when it's first realized and take it seriously when someone says hey, I'm not doing all that well and do what needs to be done in those early days just to make sure they're taken care of and they've got a nice, big helicopter platform to land on when they want to talk about what's going on for them and it's nice and safe to do so. because I feel like if you could somewhat untangle it in those early days, it didn't make the rest of it a whole lot easier. Yeah, I don't think people realize how much it must have a with anxiety, how much of a daily battle must have been for your mum just with the in their head and just being in your head so much and going to sleep would probably be the only time you can sort of escape because you couldn't sleep in, and then you're back up again. And it's very tiring, like, it's extremely tiring, or, would be. And there's a bit of similarities with bipolar. So bipolar, my mom used to sleep with people that fall asleep a lot. And my mom did anyway, so, but I'm sort of just to escape the, you know, the manic or whatever it was, but um, you know, I can imagine that it just was being very, very tiring for your mom with everything. Going through all the time, and then must be very, very difficult. The tiring thing is interesting, when we were kids, mom would sleep a lot. And when you're a kid, you think that's normal. But I didn't know. I thought all parents like if they can have a nap during the day, everyone naps, don't they But mommy still like to sleep every day, you know. And I and it wasn't till I got older, or started hanging out with kids with you know, other parents, of course, where they didn't. And I just thought it was a whole lot more normal than it ever actually. Well, it turns out mum was probably just sleeping off. As he said, The fatigue from just the battle, she was probably going through most days. So

Joel Kleber: 21:19

yeah, that's how you wouldn't. It's hard, therefore sort of as a young kid, my mom did the same thing. But you don't get until you get older. You don't really realize it's very hard to give someone who's young, that that foresight, especially if they don't know, yes, about what's going on. But even if I didn't know what's going on, it's still very hard. You know, that's your like living situation. That's what you think's normal. And, yes, it's not nice. You got other people's houses to realize it's not not as normal. Yes, yes, totally. Yeah, Mirjana talk about, obviously, you mentioned at the start, and I'll just give a warning for anyone listening that,

Unknown: 21:49

you know, obviously, you lost your mom and that I've that I've learned as well. And, and it's very, very hard experience, probably the hardest. And I've went through that, um, look, I don't you can say as much as you want to better or not, but at the time, like, I can imagine what was just, it would have been a very big shock others see, but, um, maybe just want to, because the thing I want to get with these episodes, the impact it has on family. So when you when your loved one has a mental illness, it's not just them who have it gets, it's affected, it obviously affects yourself, your your brothers, your sisters, and your father obviously, just saw that, you know, it's just a big, big hole or a big kick in the bloody guts. And then obviously, you've got that for the rest of your life. So managers want to talk about the whole time and then experience and if you can, with one passing away specifically, yeah. So remember, I, there was one day I was down in Cornwall, so I must have been down there for sort of summer holidays or whatever, whatever it might have been. And I remember my mom had gone downhill further and further and further. And it was becoming obvious that she was starting to, she was starting to die. But to me, this is what I thought she was starting to die. But I knew the only way that she could go would be suicide. I mean, she didn't have cancer, she didn't have that it wasn't that form of death. Like if you met someone you knew that was dying of say, for example, cancer, and you look at him and you go, I think they're on their way out. You know, this is this is getting tough. It was that again, but it was the mental health edition, which was really strange to see, like, physically her body was, you know, somewhat or otherwise, okay. But mentally It was what was breaking down. And I remember two things happened. I came downstairs and saw Mom making a coffee, which I often used to see, are they making a coffee and having smoke that was what her life would become at the end? We often have a joke about that now, because you know, what else are you meant to do? That's where she became, and she loved it. But I remember seeing her at the coffee machine and she was so frail. And she was so gray in her skin. And I remember looking at her thinking, it's coming like it's almost any day now. This is going to happen is how I feel like it can't get better from here. She's She's almost like she's already passed away. But her body is still here. It was really tough to see. And so I had you know, day went on blah blah. And I had a conversation with her might have been that day or might have been later that day. I can't remember what it was. But I said Mom, how you doing? You know, how's everything coming along? And she said, she goes are Dasom I'm really struggling. And I said I'm really sorry to hear that mom. And she said das it's amazing that you all you do is you just sit here and listen. That's all you do. Thank you so much you don't try and fix me you don't try and change me. All you ever do is you just come home and you just say how you doing and then you just listen. And that means the world to me. So that's it came on me to listen. She said, um, I said, Is there any way? Is there any way further that I can help you? And she said, no doubt, I need to go through this by myself. This is my journey. And this is something that I need to learn to overcome or live through. Deep down. I knew she was gonna live through it, which is phenomenal. And I said, Okay, well, is there any way that I can help you do that? And she said, Deus, just be yourself. You just be you. And I'll do I'll do me. But all I want you to do is just for you. And I know I will never for the life of me forget that conversation. Because it was one of the last conversations I really remember with mom. And the thing she said to me was das just for you. I'm like, Man, what a gift, right? So anyway, I left that conversation. I can't remember the conversation wrapped up, blah, blah. With a conversation left. The house must have gone back to Melbourne, etc. And just knowing that just take down having this sense feels like this is this is Kent, this is coming soon. And so I was actually on Stradbroke Island, just off Brisbane and I was writing a book I was on select a book writing retreat. I was spending a week out there and just putting the book together, whatever. So for those that don't know, Stradbroke Island, you are in Brisbane. So I was living in Melbourne at the time. So to fly to Brisbane from Brisbane, you catch a ferry across to Stradbroke Island, right? It's about an hour and a half ferry or something like that. Anyway, it's like the fourth night of it. And I look at my phone. I've got about four missed calls. From my brother, three missed calls from my sister. Few text messages das call me call me now. Das Hey, das needs you to give us a call when you can, etc. I looked at it and I was like, I know exactly what's happening. You didn't I didn't even have to make the call. I knew for sure. Now, I can't even tell you who it was for sure. I think it was my brother that I called I think I'm 90% sure it was Jay. I called him said hey, how's it going? I think you've got some news for me, do ya? And remember me said Yeah, Gus, mom's mom's passed away. Okay. All right. Okay, thanks. And I remember just saying, Okay, thanks. I just like, I just took on the news. Like, it was like someone was telling me that, hey, just letting you know that your tax return will be $24 this year. Okay. Thanks. No worries like it was so it just didn't hit me in the moment. And I said, How's dad? And he said, Yeah, he's no good. He's, he can't speak at the moment. But um, yeah, maybe give him a call later on. And we'll go from there. I said, no worries. I went upstairs. And I was with a group of about seven of us, I think it was that we're doing this writing thing. And I went up to him and said, Hey, guys, just letting you know, my mom's passed away. I think she might have committed suicide. And they all looked at me shocked. And I remember being shocked that they were shocked. Does that make sense? Like, in my mind, I was like, it's all good, guys. It's fine. Like, it's all good. Like, I'll just I'll go home. That's okay. You guys, don't let this influence you. I'll, I'll take care of myself. And they were just like, gave me a big hug. And I was like, totally, don't worry about it. I walked back downstairs. And like, I don't know, maybe after about 15 seconds of just being by myself. It all hit me like just this tidal wave of like, bricks. Someone had dropped from the roof, smash me to the ground. And I was like, Aw, crap. Okay. This is I've just realized the reality and the enormity of what has just occurred. I went back upstairs and went up to him. I was like, Oh, crap, guys, like, you know, in much more prophetic language. I was Yeah, I was I was just in shock. And I just My body was just shaking and all this sort of stuff right. Now from there, my only option was to actually sleep the night there out on that island. And actually catch a ferry back that morning, is what I had to do sleep on the island that night. catch a ferry from Stradbroke Island that morning, back to Brisbane, fly from Brisbane to Melbourne that day, and then drive from Melbourne to horrible three and a half hours to be with my family later that night. And all I did when I was just on the plane and I in the car was I just stared at the back of the seat in front of me and bawled my eyes out. I feel so sorry for the people that had to sit next to me on that plane because I was a mess and they would have had no idea why but I just couldn't control it. I was just profusely crying for about 24 hours. And from there I got home and I feel like when I actually got home and could be with dad and could be with my sister and my brother and my partner at the time. I feel like once I was there I was like the bird was back to its nest like I was okay I could I could be okay again and I could just be with them and hug them and we could all be a complete mess together. What was worse was being a complete mess just alone. I just want to be a complete mess. is with them, if that makes sense. So, from them A, I would say that the impact that it has had on our family moving forward from that time is one of the most underestimated things that anyone could ever imagine losing a family member, especially someone so young, so untimely, and in such an unfortunate and, and, and die, also, like suicide has like its level of darkness to it to society, you know what I mean? So that that added edge to it was so difficult. I remember I was having a chat with a good mate of ours, you know, fab store, Fabian store, a previous guitar through yours as well. And he's a good friend of mine. And I say to him around about a week later, after mum died, he said, How you doing? And I said, Yeah, mate, I'm all good. I feel like I'm better. You know, like, I've had my chance to cry. I've gotten angry about it. I'm good now made. I think, though I'm good. made, I was still in shock. I reckon I was still in shock for the next four months, let alone that first week of grief. And for the first year of it all, it was really difficult in terms of mentally understanding what dad now needed, because he needed to be taken care of, because he really couldn't take care of himself. So we kids got right around him. What our siblings needed what I needed. I was running businesses at the time. So I still needed to be somewhat on for work and things like this. And that first year is a blur. And it was really difficult. But I'll tell you this make that first year was was a dream ride compared to the next years that followed it. The first year, I feel like I was still just in shock the whole time. And I think our whole family was somewhat adjusting to this new life that has been thrust upon you that you never even knew existed. The years that have followed years 2345 Now we're up to I think year six or something like that six years, some students are five or six, I keep I lose track sometimes. These years that have followed have been, I would say far more difficult. And I feel like that doesn't get spoken about enough because a lot of people go oh, you know, you had the grief you got through it. And now life's easier on the other side. But I can that's a lot of crap. May I think that sometimes it even gets harder with time as it goes on. Because now there's more things that we realize she's actually missing out on. I've just had my first daughter who's her granddaughter, and they'll never meet each other. And every time I look at my daughter, I'm like if you had if you just knew who your nana was in back in her heyday, and and how incredible it would be for you to admit her and, and vice versa. It pains me each time that you know that that that I realized that. So we got a really bright future ahead as a family. But with every shred of brightness that we are going to experience comes the associated brightness that also a mum won't feel because she's not here. So there's there's learning to manage that and learn to juggle about it learning to live with that. Early days, I feel like I always tried to solve it and resolve it really quick and move on with my life and try to get back to normal. I've since learned that that is an impossible task and surrendering to the new life that you have is actually an learn to live with that is actually more the proper path. I would suggest that you're spot on. And you're exactly right. So my mom's just passed the year anniversary she passed away. And sorry to hear it might I do remember when you posted that? Yeah, sure. Yeah. My mom was mom was in the sudden thing. Like your mom was four weeks of palliative care in Lyndoch. Every day with his Yes, it was really hard. But but you're right when you said that, you're all the achievements you're going to do. That's the big kick in the guts because I'm the same as you and we bought a house never had a house growing up, you know, so we had a house and like you bought a house. And it's supposed to be a joyous occasion. And you think the same thing is what you're thinking, Well, I wanted my mom to stay or want to share this with her or this achievement. Achievements you do moving forward, you're right, your mind, or my mind at least goes to that place as well. Like, it's hard to be happy in that moment. Because you brought your person who you love a lot, who you want to be there. It's not their achievement. So you do is always a bit taken away from it every single time. And you're right. That's what I found very hard and a spot on saying exactly what you said about the like, even though it's but as you said people might think oh, it's free for three months, and then you're over it, but it's not in the year. Well, it's a lifelong. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 100% And then what's what's interesting, Joel is you know, I've experienced quite a traumatic grief I would call it at a quite a young age and I keep wrestling with the fact that I'm like, man, like as we get older, more and more and more of this is going to happen. It's not like everyone has that one or two traumatic reefs in their life like as we get older and ideally much older. You know, grief is going to become a much more I'm consistent experience of life. So learning how to manage it early, I suppose it's somewhat of a benefit, an unfortunate benefit, but I suppose it's there. Yeah, and exactly. But the thing is, well, it's like your, as you said, your reality is permanently changed from that moment on, like, there's anyone who acts, you know, it's like it hasn't is not something you can really do. So, yeah, it's, um, it's such, I've never experienced anything more life changing and that so Wait, have you used this event? to shape your life moving forward? Like what have you tried? Because, for me, I had all these regrets. And my mind was always going, I should have done this more with OSHA than this. regrets, I had found it really hard still to get out of a grip Redmine? And how do you use this event? Or this this moment? Have you used it to, in the last five, six years to change your life? What have you have you ever taken some lessons from it? Or is there some things where you have more introspection, where you're sort of maybe let's say, things become less of a problem for your how you have used it. We've certainly become a whole lot closer as a family, I'm certainly closer with my sister than I ever was, we really bonded through the grief and have been there to support each other through the grief. And as I said, I've just had a daughter, and you know, you know, Will her family be expanding soon and things like that, as well. So that's, that's been awesome to be on that journey with her. Personally, for me, it was a lot to do with work. So as I said, I've run a couple run a few businesses and things like this over the time. And so when you're a business owner, you always need to be somewhat on and you need to work pretty hard. And I came to a point where I couldn't do that any longer. The the experience of the grief and the overwhelm of the grief became far bigger than I could handle plus run a business at the same time. So I remember taking quite a bit of time off and when did a bit of travel and just settled resettled myself in that way. And then when I got back to working, I still, I still probably am not the operator that I once was before mum died with that clarity of mind that I used to have. But I just know, I feel the the sensations of that overwhelm getting towards that boiling point a whole lot earlier now. And I just stopped, like, I'm not stressing myself out, I'm not going further for this than I need to. If the client wants me, the client will call me back tomorrow, I don't have to get them back today. Whereas before, I would just work, work, work, work, work, work, work, whatever needed to be done, I'll work on it, let's go. And it was like a badge of honor. Now, I'm like, my mental health and my stability is infinitely more valuable than any bit of business growth that I could have. It doesn't mean I still don't love business growth, and still want to succeed in that and do really well with that and add a lot of value to people through that. But it's just a level of priority now. And then again, again, it's changed with, you know, having our daughter like, you know, she takes precedence over all of it. So yeah, it's been that's been a key thing to change. I still have many days may still have tons, where I'm like, Man, did I have learned anything from this grief at all? Like, look at me still working myself into the ground? Why am I doing this? I shouldn't you know, I still have days like that. They still do come back. Absolutely. But far, far, far less than they used to, that's for sure. But that might that took years to learn. That took one moment to learn through like burning out and stuff like that. But years to actually get better at managing that and having some stability around that. I'm pretty happy with where that's at these days. And during this last five years, have you gone and spoken anyone or have you? Was it something you've just worked through yourself? Or have you dealt Yeah, not may I've really come to enjoy speaking to therapists, counselors, things like that. I really love the insights that they can offer. And I'm you know, I've got a background in psychology myself. And so I'm fascinated by it nonetheless. So I I've enjoyed speaking to grief counselors early, huge shout out to Shane store as in Fabin, Alex's old man, he was unreal in those early days helping me out. He's based in Warrenville. He was so so great to speak with. And then since then, I've had a number of chats with just different coaches, counselors, etc. And everyone's got a different perspective and view on it. And everyone's been a good help in a different way based on where I'm at in my own journey. So there's every chance now if I spoke to Shane, it the help wouldn't be as massive as it was back in those early days. And that's when I needed him then and he was unreal for that stage, you know, so, yeah, make our men no no shame coming from this side of the side of the ring in terms of talking to people getting the help you need and, and getting that out there. I highly recommend that to anyone experiencing not only some form of grief, but just in terms of when you are living with a parent with a mental illness. There are impacts that it will have on you that you may not necessarily be aware of until someone shines a light on it and goes, Hey, you realize that happens because of this? Oh, wow, that's, that's insightful that actually has changed the way I see the world through learning that so and what insights, what insight would you say has been the most impactful to you that you've gathered from the mate? Great question. Best one, I know off the top of my head easily, is learning that, that in the same way, they say, having a heart attack, or getting cancer or anything like that is the way that the body dies. Like, it's like a physical thing that leads to a physical death. Suicide is the same for mental health. But it's just the only way it knows how to end itself. I remember thinking that suicide was a rational choice for mum. And when you think it's a rational choice, like she's of sound mind when she's doing it, then it leads you to open up to blaming yourself. Because what you do is you go, well, could I have done anything different? Was it something I said or didn't say, or something I did or didn't do when I was younger, that helped that contributed to? And it just, it's just not the case? It's like, it's kind of like saying, Is there something that I did when I was younger, or said or didn't say, that led to my dad having a heart attack, or that led to my uncle getting cancer? Or that it's like, no, the body's doing its own thing, the brain is doing its own thing as well. It's not rational. And when I realized that the suicide was the way of part of passing away for mum, it just, it just took off took the pressure off myself for thinking that I was somewhat to blame or needed to take responsibility for her death or anything like that, which is very hard to get your head around when it first happens. Suicide because the natural thing is to go, here's did I contribute to this? Did I was there something different? I could have done. I've since learned there was nothing different I could have done, there's nothing I could have done that could have added to it or subtracted to it. It doesn't exist on that rational, logical plane. So that was really relieving to let go off through that process.

Joel Kleber: 42:10

It's amazing insight, because I guarantee or guarantee everyone who experiences that exactly what you said would be thinking, going back to them and saying, you know, what, could I have done more could have done this, and it would be an absolute lifelong burden for some people who don't come to that same conclusion as you have, which is a very, which is the right one? Absolutely. It's the right one.

Unknown: 42:29

Yeah, my advice there would be do whatever, you can have as many conversations as you can read as many books as you can, whatever listens podcasting if you need to, to eventually come to that realization yourself. Because when it finally clicks, it's it's a rubber. It's a it's quite a reliever. Yeah, yeah. Cuz I think it's a really important thing you said, and that's gonna be a great clip to share. Because it's such a good frame of analysis, it's the best best explanation I've ever heard that, um, so many people who would have this tragic event happened to be still living, you know, 2030 years later, with that same sort of every bloody day, they'd be kicking themselves in their head about I should have done this and shouldn't have done that, because they don't realize what you've realized. So it's a very, it's a very insightful and very impactful thing you've gone down, did you gather that from the counselor? Was that something you come to yourself? Or how did you learn that? I get a bit of both. I think it was a conversation that I had with the counselor one time. And then I was just sort of thinking about the conversation after and then it just popped into my head. And then I confirmed it with her after. And she's like, yes, starts you getting it starting to unravel a bit, you're starting to understand that. It's although you're your own center of your own world. This happened outside the center of your own world, this is not the case. So and how did that realization change your life? Because I can imagine it? Would it? Was it just the weight off your shoulder? Or was it something where you was not in your head as much thinking about scenarios or what had changed? Yeah, both night yeah, both throw whatever was good, throw it all in the basket. It was it was really relieving. So it was it was almost like a physical weight off my shoulders, that sometimes it's there without you even realizing it's there. Until it gets relieved, you don't realize that it was sitting on top of you. And then just the, the, essentially what we're talking about here is the emotion of shame or guilt. And shame or guilt will ruin the mind if you if you allow it to like it can knock people down over a long period of time and just add your way at people's mental health. So unless you're able to resolve the shame or guilt, it will, it'll just sit there and it'll always sit there and remind you that you're not as good as you think you are. And it'll just, it'll just put words into your mind that aren't necessarily always 100% True. They're true to the guilt, but they're not necessarily true to you. There's a difference. So so relieving that pressure just almost instantaneously started to resolve some of that, those words in my mind that would, you know, blame me for it. And it is Sitting, watch those words as they come up, you kind of realize like, man, that's some, some pretty mean stuff. Those words are saying, You know what I mean, if you leave with a housemate that said this stuff do you move out of the house? But unfortunately, this is a house sometimes you can't move out of.

Joel Kleber: 45:14

So yeah, that insight you come to is that something your family shares now a fuel to do something? You should?

Unknown: 45:19

Yeah, I remember. Totally. Yeah. I remember having this conversation with Bree, my sister. And yeah, she is she, as far as I know, from conversations with her, she never experienced that. She remembers knowing from day one, this isn't my fault. This is This is Mental Health. This is so she had a much more deeper and more accurate insight than I had early on. So it was good to get the insight from her as well. Because sometimes you'd have an awesome insight you'd like just to confirm this one. Because I hope if I confirm this with someone that they like, yes, stuff, you're getting it. And that's absolutely what happened from a number of sources. So I was, that's just my learning process. It's confirmed with a couple of people first. So yeah, that helped a lot.

Joel Kleber: 45:57

And how, how is your father going? Because I can imagine. It must be lucky. Extremely, very, extremely hard. So what was the support? Or how how's that been going the whole time?

Unknown: 46:10

Yeah, really tough few years. And he still has days now where he, where he really feels so hard. I know that he does. But he's since remarried. Jan is coming to us. And she's awesome, mate. She's so good for him. And they have a great relationship. And she we're so stoked to have a in our lives as kids. Because the thing is, when someone remarries, particularly after what we've experienced, you hear some pretty horror stories, maybe you hear of, you know, Dad remarried, and then she's not, you know, we don't like her and all you hear is some horror story. So, you know, to have her in our lives, and for us to love having her around is awesome. So that's helped a lot. And it's helped him to, I'm not gonna say move on, because I don't know that you ever fully move on, but it is least helped him to move forward, and keep putting one's one foot in front of the other. And it's given him somewhat of a bit of a zest for life back again, because Jen loves to travel and you know, they love going out and they're foodies. So they love trying all expensive food whenever they can, and you know, doing all cool stuff, which he couldn't really do when Mum was cook. You know, you I know that you cared for your mother quite deeply and literally physically, like you were literally there with your mother side by side with her a lot. So you know what it's like, there's a lot of things you can't do. Because you're taking care of a loved one. And that was definitely the experience for dad. So he will the sadness, he experiences from losing mum will never leave. And he is now also starting to enjoy some other things as well. So yeah,

Joel Kleber: 47:44

that's good. Good to hear. Now with them, what do you think needs to be done in this space more? Because I think depression anxiety people know about it, but I don't think they know it to the extent of how, what the actual outcomes can be I don't you generally don't hear suicide mentioned with anxiety or always with depression and other things we never really hear it mentioned with anxiety at all. Yeah, what do you think needs to be done from that perspective, just because I think there is a general awareness around anxiety, which is good, but I just don't think there's a deeper understanding that what it can, what unfortunate outcomes actually can lead to? What do you think needs to be done more around that?

Unknown: 48:23

I think people need to know how to listen. The answer is actually not necessarily to do more. Maybe the answer is actually to do less meaning and allow me to explain that, meaning we have all these, we have all these movements teaching you teaching us how to how to talk about it, and people are saying talk about it more. And that is the right thing. That's a good thing that people are going to talk about it more. But if more people are talking but no one's listening, then the talking has no value. And I know for mum that the most valuable thing that ever happened was never anything I said, it was nothing I ever said it was when I actually said the least. And just gave her space to just unload. And just and just have that experience and that opportunity just to talk about what was on our chest and not be judged for it, I think was key. And so what can we do? I'm not sure I don't know about any charity that needs to be started or any sort of, you know, foreign hotline that someone could start. I don't know about any of that I'm really not well accustomed to be able to answer that. But all I know is that the more that you actually just listen to people without judgment, the more free people can begin to feel and you and I can do that Joel, whoever's listening this podcast, you can do that in the very next conversation that you have. That's something that you can literally do today. You don't need to donate any money to any charity. You don't. And you should go free if you want. But I just know that listening is one of the most valuable assets that particularly in the Western world, we haven't really adopted all that well in the modern world. So that's what I would suggest and advice for grief because I don't think gets spoken about enough. And yeah, we don't really talk enough. So

Joel Kleber: 50:05

what advice do you have for someone to help or to deal with grief? Because there's no handbook about it. So what? Obviously, you don't go through that situation again. But you got to time over you had to go through what are some things maybe you would have done differently? Or what sort of advice would you have given yourself?

Unknown: 50:24

Yeah, good one. Give yourself time. Brief has its own timeline, and goes through its own ups and downs, and its own loop de loops. And you can have times where you think that you through it, and you're all taken care of. And then it just comes in belting in the face again, I had a really good metaphor, once that grief is like your you were out on a ship in the middle of the ocean, and a tidal wave came and rocked your boat. And when it first happens, all you're doing is swallowing water, trying to breathe, thinking that if I can just get to the surface here, I'll be okay. And you get to the surface and the tidal wave comes and knocks you down again, and then you've just left there only ever, just having enough oxygen just to breathe in those early days. And then eventually, what happens is, the sunlight starts to come out, and the waves kind of go a little bit softer, they're not so drastic anymore. And perhaps you might find a piece of wood wreckage from the wreckage of the ship that you can hold on to and float on to for a while. And that's helpful. But every now and then those tidal waves are just going to come and crash again, because that's what an ocean does. And I remember hearing that and just going like, man, that's so relieving to know that it's okay to get bashed by the tidal wave of grief, because it's going to happen anyway, we don't have any control over that. So I wish that I had given myself earlier on that freedom to actually not be okay. That freedom to just be just fall to pieces and surrender to the pain of it all, because it's there to be felt for a reason. And it's there to be felt anyway, it's always just going to find a way to come out. So might as well feel it and sit there and be knocked over by it and surrender to have that experience and let that be okay. And whatever that involves for people is completely up to them. So that's one part of it, definitely. But with grief, because it's so misunderstood in the Western world, largely because we don't understand death. Death is so swept underneath the rug in the Western world. So much so that I remember having this conversation with a good friend of mine who lost his mom around about six months after I did. And I said, mate, how you doing with the whole grief thing? Because I was struggling? I'm like, surely you're struggling to like, you know, almost like, Hey, can we struggle together because I want to have this chat. And he goes all night. You know, one thing really, really helped my grief journey. I said, What was that he goes oh, and traveled India for a few months, said, Okay, tell me more. He goes by after mom died, and I was in India, some of the conversations I had with Indians about death, and how they approach it and what they make it mean, completely shifted my definition of where my mum is, and what the purpose of her life was, and everything. And he goes, it's just made this whole experience. Really difficult experience a little bit easier. And I remember thinking, Yeah, I think we've got a few things to learn over here in the Western world about about death and what it actually means. And really when you start exploring what death means you really start exploring what life means. So really questioning it might like that's the thing is death is so unquestioned, and no one wants to talk about it. giving yourself the opportunity to actually really question it and get curious about it. It'll change your life for sure. So your conversation about that sort of stuff would be super handy. Yeah, you want to proceed and I think with grief, we get this we've got this stupid view here. I think when someone passes away in the funeral standard A week later, you speaking to get back to normal, which is not right. Like I know from talking to people might be five years 10 years later, and you're right waves come up until May the worst thing happens to me. I've got the auto photo on my phone. So I've obviously had a lot of photos my mom and occasional pop up and then I see it in in a wave comes. So yeah, you're I knew how to spell it. But yeah, the great thing, I don't think we understand it at all, how to deal with it and how it's really, really long, long process and that's okay. Yeah, I think it would be abnormal. If you could have you're awake, like you'd be on a maybe a sociopath or something's up. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but the death and the palliative care or the palliative side of as well. But when I'm presented with what you said about that, I think it's something that we struggle to talk about, whereas other cultures like India or Mexico for example, it's such a different perspective they have they have on it and I think over here as is a very still the very hidden it's a very you don't talk about it's a very, process it on yourself don't it's a very I think it's a very stunted view of it because I think it's something everyone goes through. But you're right. I don't think we've especially the western world, especially in Australia, it's something that we deal with very, very poorly in terms of palliative care and the grief and the death experience. I think The best. The best help that I got was always from people who have experienced it already. You know, you they just they can come up to you and just say, Hey, I get it. I know how you're doing. I know that it's probably a bit lonely. I know the rest of the world out here doesn't understand it or what you've gone through, but I gotcha. I remember playing golf with a bloke one day, and I've never met him before. We're on like the first hole we were playing together, and mum came up in like the first hole of compensation. And I remember he was giving me this look, he goes, I got your mate, I know what you're going through. I lost a son, I can't I don't answer that. He just lost his father recently lost his father. And you guys, I got you, man. It's all good. And then that's all you ever needed to say. And I just knew I was in. I was in the bounds of safety with a guy who got it. And I got him. You know, and not much needs to be said, when you understand that about each other.

Joel Kleber: 55:53

Exactly. Right. You know, you have that level of understanding of the of the experience and exactly, exactly right. But I was gonna say as well, what had like for me with my mom passing, it's made me more empathetic and definitely more patient now, for whatever reason, it's just changed me from that regard. It has it changed you personally in regards to you mentioned a little bit before, but has it been one or two things you find yourself you'll now as you said, you prioritize yourself and your mental well being more, whereas the pastor wouldn't? Is there anything else you learned or you've adopted? Or do you think just you've changed about yourself on it?

Unknown: 56:28

It's so easy now to tap into? How would I be behaving around this person? Knowing that one day they will actually pass away? Okay, so when mum died, you have memories with your mum? Well, I'm creating memories now, like with your jaw, like right now, one day you'll pass away, and I'm going to remember I remember I was on a podcast with him once. So it changes how you interact day to day with people because he like one day, this will be a memory. And I'll think about this moment when I hear about their funeral. And so just makes you patients a great word mate. It makes you it makes you just realize that like this, there's way more important things than than that person needing to get this right, or that person needing to agree with me, or that person needing to settle down if they're annoying me or whatever. It's just like just I suppose let them be them there. That's the that's the journey. That's where they are, as opposed to something that I wish they were all weren't you know what I mean? So patients are great, where it patients for the personalities of people that maybe you might not have had patients for because, you know, there's someone's father, there's someone's mother, there's someone's son, someone's daughter, and when they pass away, I want to be able to look back on it and go, I liked that I thought positively about them. When that when they were here, because, yeah, one of them might be Yeah, I think it helps you catch yourself a bit more. And as you said, pour yourself more into that thinking because sometimes you get really lost, like, in the job I worked on get really lost, like, you know, this person's an idiot, or all these problems, a big problem, and it's really not, yeah, I've been able to really, for me personally pull myself out of things I used to, in the past, I just get sucked in and now just pull myself out of it. And it's not a big problem. I think you get that extra level of perspective. And you do I don't know you almost feel more present form film was in like in, in yourself and as you said, you appreciate people more you do have those thoughts and realizations you know, that exactly right? That interaction you never know might be the last time you interact with someone, whatever. So make it a good interaction. Or you know, you want to let this person have a win because you know, they'll make their day whatever it is. So yeah, I think I think what you said spot on and I think using using tragic situations, or like your hat and stuff but just realizing you can obviously put a hole in your you know, there's a hole that's always going to be the can't be field and that's just going to be a fact for both of us, but realizing you will gain some perspective and you will gain some insights and you will gain some let's say maybe different personality traits that will actually help your life. Yes. And I think that's the way I've been looking at it now is what I've gone through has been the hardest thing ever. But I instantly that's my hardest situation ever everything else that comes now. It's not a big problem. Yeah, it's not like I don't really buy into it too much in my life actually overall better even though it's got that hole. But my life actually has improved a lot in regards to you know, as I said patients and just realizing things that are problems aren't problems. There's no There's no such thing as Australia in my opinion is that you've gone through what I've gone through the real stuff, that's a problem. Everything else is not a problem. Yeah. As I said in business and things like that, I must say in in sales and business conversations that I've had and I know you work closely with with Jim so you know what it's like to operate with a man that can have business conversations day to day and I've certainly lost a lot of fear for people that I might want to connect with in the business world or things like that. Previously, I'd be like, Oh, I don't know if I'm capable of talking to them or whatever. I'm like, now I'm like, Do you have any idea how little it would hurt me to be rejected by that person? It through a business conversation, compared to losing your money. Like, it's like, it's just made all that a whole lot easier. And it's just, I don't care. Like it's a fuel source. And that's the way of yours Yeah. And like, if you can pull yourself back to that, you're right, it can really be days and bad and crap thing, right? Never going to change it. But if you frame it, if you let it get you down, and as you said, you can go great, I should have done this and this, and if you never gonna get anywhere, but if you reframe it, as you said to be the fuel, sort of, as you said, to take the just to be more way more courageous than what you maybe would have been previously, because you've had that hardest experience that everyone's going to anyone's gonna go for. There's nothing harder, that I know of what I've gone through that it's going to be really than that. So, yeah, it's a great way to look at it. Darcy. So you're saying that you've been more with your business? Now you're more confident, because you recall back to this situation that you've been feeling like I can do anything? Or has it impact you. So that has and then also, because in business, you I mean, you you interact with people all day, every day business people go. And so I've also now been much more empathetic with people that I connect with in business a couple of reasons here Java be interesting, your thoughts on these two? Number one, just in general in life, you have no idea what people are going through behind the scenes. And so I've been much more where I used to be probably a bit more, I'd say, I don't think cutthroats the right answer rewarded for it, because I definitely wasn't that but I was definitely more dominant, I would say more, more forward in a lot of my conversations. I've learned to let that go. Because, you know, people are probably having the experience today that everyone's got their stuff going on. I've definitely developed a whole lot more, I believe, if I may say so myself a lot more empathy in my business conversations now. And because of that, my relationships and business have been a whole lot more meaningful. They've just been better relationships, I would say, rather than transactional, so to speak. So that's been really cool. But the other thing about business specifically, is that a lot of people in business are some of the most stressed people you could ever meet, they got a lot on their plate, they got a lot of problems to solve, like a lot of responsibilities. And so if anyone ever has, like, you know, mental stuff going on, those responsibilities can just compound really quickly. So I've learned to be like, hey, you know, just keep that in mind when you have in business conversations. They're a person first before they ever a business owner. And so the person matters infinitely more than their title. So take care of the person person, the business will come as a result of that is what I've learned. You know, I think the best thing or the way I look at it is I never sort of if someone acts like an idiot, like let's say they're aggressive to You're rude, whatever it is, I never react to that behavior. Whereas now I'm thinking, Well, what made that person be like that? Yeah, I've always been in the back of my head. So what might that person be like that? So they're generally never angry with you? Or they're not, you know, whatever, there's something going on in their life or something's happened to him that's made in that way. So I look at everyone like that now with a negative interaction in regards to negative interaction they have with me yeah, if it's for whatever reason, I never take it personally, I'm always looking at what made that person act that way. Yes, once you get down to the drill of it, you look at certain things in their life, I must be going on anything I you know, whatever, it makes things a lot easier. Yeah, so the empathy, the empathy, I think, for whatever reason, it's heightened it's heightened. Since this thing and I find myself actually wanting this might sound strange but my mum was really really nice person really, really sweet friends of everyone that's not like me, that's not my nature. But I found myself trying to be more like her honor her memory and try and be you know, carry her traits with me more so I've tried a fair myself being you know, trying to be more open with people be more proactive in in friendliness in regards to the office environment, or whatever it is. So that's what I'm trying to do more of. That's awesome. I got a question actually. And be curious about this. You mentioned that the podcast got a negative review and that's what actually went actually saw the video on LinkedIn. How did that first of all, how did that happen? And how did that go down? And then did you apply some of this thinking to that negative review?

Joel Kleber: 1:04:25

Or you mentioned on the show I was annoyed because what happened was I had a guest on and she was saying something that's her opinion and I disagree with that. Like I guess there's something I'm not gonna challenge them on too much and and then the lady left they have done like, you know, 45 episodes and mainly talk about mental health but this episode was a little bit different. And she left this review I'm thinking bloody hell like at night because I had a five star rating and then obviously had the average and then erected but saying that I actually did another episode. Talking about it. The actual lady then went back to a review. I don't know if she heard the episode, but she changed it from three to four star which is fine.

Unknown: 1:04:58

She changed it and then what was nice to know that there she probably heard the second episode and felt bad and changed a bit. Um, it was a bit annoying because it just like, you know, you can have all this good good interaction. And then the one thing that wasn't that bad really is a three star reviews and a one star. But it just got me that down that backs and thinking, geez, I do this, I spend a lot of money, not a lot of money, I spend money doing this thing and intention behind what I do is good. And I can't control what a guest would say. Yes, yeah. And you're everything I've done, you've picked up on this one thing, and that's annoyed you enough to go and then write on this. And then I was very angry at the time. And then after a week or two later, I sort of think Well, that's obviously I knew why she wrote it. Like I can tell why ye she wrote a bit um, yeah, took me a while to get a while to get over. But yeah, you gotta catch yourself, I find myself sometimes going back to my natural reactions. But yeah, I do after a while I'm a bit thicker with this sort of stuff. But I do come around eventually just takes me a lot more time, like a couple of weeks, to pull myself out of it and look at it objectively and apply what we've been saying into those situations. But yeah, I don't know how people at larger scales have a massive audience deal with all that sort of stuff. Because, yeah, I find it very hard still, because I think when you're trying to do something with good intentions, like the podcast is overall, it's a good thing. I'm not promoting anything. I'm not trying to sell courses or anything like that. It's basically just trying to document as many stories as possible that aren't someone's like, as a sporting athlete or something. Talk Yeah, real people to talk about it. So the reason why I do it's, it's sort of a, it's just a passion thing on my way of giving back a little bit, because I don't get really involved with the charities and all that sort of stuff. This is not my thing. This is my version of it.

Joel Kleber: 1:06:36

Yeah, it was an interesting, interesting thing. And I learned I learned a little bit from it is a very small thing. But as you said, as we've been saying, it's it's not a problem. Just the reaction, but yeah, it was one of those things. But how about, how about you now? How do you in your in your business world? How do you as you said, you've talked about it more how you've been more introspective now. But yes, it's made you more confident dealing with going to some bigger clients? What else has it? What else has it given you in terms of your business day?

Unknown: 1:07:07

Good question. I would say more and more now, I'm probably getting open to sharing it. And like I said to you, I actually posted on LinkedIn after we said we were agreed to do this podcast, I think you saw the post where I said, you know, I'm getting to the point now where I'm open to sharing about this and things like this, it's actually opening up opportunities for me to help people outside of a transactional business space. So business has been a big part of my life up until this point. And it's feels good to have, it feels so good to have this podcast on Friday, Joel with you, where it's, I'm not on a business call. And I'm not working with clients, and I'm not selling something and I'm not, it's completely separate. And it's just this part of life where I've had experience that I can now start to add to people. So in any way in some sort of way, like it helps me in business because it gives me an outlet from business where I can still help people and still share value. But it doesn't have to be transactional, it can just be this is just here to just give I don't need anything back from this. I'm just I just want to give my time because I know that Darcy from five years ago would have loved to have listened to a podcast like this, and had that guidance from other people who had been through it before. So it's a great way to look at it, I think I think the one thing you got to people need to realize is if you have the experience like yours, like it's not it's not saying this is probably the wrong word. But this the way I've sort of framed it, it's selfish, not telling anyone or not keeping it to yourself, because you've got so much learnings from a really hard event, which not is not spoken about enough, you won't see it on mainstream TV, it's very hard to find content around this. So you're creating content. That's very, very valuable. And that's as you said, it's something that it will help other people doesn't matter about audience size or whatever. But it will help people it's something that lives there forever. And your story will be documented. And then people can find it. And it's something that you just never know who it helps. You know, from doing this. My audience is not 10,000 downloads an episode. But I occasionally get messages from people saying I listen to this, or I've never heard someone say about this before or whatever. And that's what that's what it's about. You just never know, the impact of it. And I think with everyone's stories, there's so many good stories out there people have. And I think I want to tell you on some scale of what someone might think, but it's very selfish because there's so much value in learning, which people don't share enough, I think because Yep. And that's how I think, you know, the intention is quite, quite pure. Is that the if you had 10,000 downloads, awesome, but that's not why you're doing it. The best experiences I've had Creating content is the content that I just, I don't care who listens to it or who he is. I just feel like this needs to come out. And if this helps one person then awesome. I remember. That's the way I look at it. Yeah, yeah, that's it. You just you're just there to just one other person. If that helps, then great. That's how, you know, you're, you're creating the right content, I think, yeah, it's a purposeful thing because people need purpose, right? So you can earn all the money in the world. I've know, I know a lot of rich people, and I can tell you what a lot of them are not happy because their purpose is solely about money. There's no, there's no community or anything like that. It's purely you know, how much money can I make and by position and that's it. So for me, for me, this gives me a little bit of purpose, like you've got a family now. So you're Yeah, I'd say not speaking for you, but large amount of your purpose would be your daughter, you know, had 1,000% That's your priority. That's your purpose, you know, and it gives you a real you got a real zest to life with that and businesses over here, but you know, are distinct some people you just need a bit of a purpose and, and sharing content or sharing stories like this, it can go a little bit to giving you a purpose, and that's what I find when I talk to guests like this. Some guests had a lady last week called Jenny, who's been through a lot of her life. And you know, just having given someone a platform to share for an hour even if it's not a you know, 20,000 10,000 Download thing, you know, that it's helped that person feel as though they're contributed but also feels like someone's listened as you said, listen to him and and gives a crap and that's that's a really big thing. Yeah, that's awesome. Well said, Well, sir, no worries,

Joel Kleber: 1:11:13

mate. Well, I've had you for more than an hour. So thank you very much for your time and for sharing your story. Darcy is your absolute champion of a fella and you haven't you know, in terms of your personality, enthusiasm, you haven't changed much since he was very enthusiastic and I'm very open about bloke and I'm really glad to hear about your your your family and your and your father, and your brothers and sisters. And I hope you guys are all doing okay, because I've had a few guests on you've had a similar experience. And you know, it's a it's an interesting thing like yours is a sudden like as you said, you know the way you spoke about it, but it's a sudden thing was with mine was a gradual thing. Yes. So I just agile thing I knew is a physical thing was yes, the way you've described it, so the different scenarios, but um, it's if anyone can get anything this I think it's the time thing as you said, I don't think there's any fix to the grief, you can go and talk to counselors and stuff which might help it. I just think there's no other substitute for time, which is very, very true. With that there's nothing else I think you can do to shortcut or rush the process to think as a time thing.

Unknown: 1:12:14

Well said. I appreciate you.

Joel Kleber: 1:12:16

I appreciate it. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you, man. Cheers. Thanks, tees. Thanks, Darcy. Appreciate you man for coming on. Thank you for listening to today's episode. If you do like what you hear, please make sure you leave a review online on Apple Spotify on the website reach out to me via the disciplines podcast.com If you want to share your story as well, like Darcy, please do it. It can help someone I get a lot of lot out of that episode. You know, it's a very tragic thing will happen to the to the dassies family. And it's something that I'm really appreciative of him sharing his story because even though we hear about the topic of suicide in the general like you know, someone's committed suicide, we don't hear about the family and what the family goes through really too much after that, right. So to hear it from his perspective, and and also he from his family's perspective via him. I think you can really appreciate just the how much mental illness affects everyone. It affects everyone in a family unit. Especially friends family as well, but just really big thank you to Darcy for sharing his story, and I really do appreciate him and what he did, he's a great fella, and he's got obviously a massive future. He's just got to be a family. He started so I wish him all the best of that as well. So big thank you to everyone for listening to today. If you did enjoy it, please make sure you leave a review and live the experience podcast.com